Summer Talkback Series - Justin Giboney on Faithfulness in a Polarized Society
Download MP3Good evening, everyone. Good evening, and welcome. We are so glad that each and every one of you are here tonight. If I haven't had the chance to meet you, my name is Matt Francisco. I'm the associate lead pastor here at Redeemer, and you, in case you didn't know, are at our 2nd theological talk back of the summer.
Speaker 1:And the way that these operate is we invite a guest to come and speak on a particular topic, for 30, 40 minutes, then we take a couple of minute break, and then we have a time of q and a. We pray, and we close out. If you would like to submit a question like we did a couple of weeks ago when Isaac Adams was with us, you can visit slido.com. We'll have a a slide behind me that you can check that out. It's just slid0.com, and use the code talk back.
Speaker 1:And why we have, begun using that is you can submit questions. You can also see questions that have been submitted and upvote those. And then after the break, Ford Galen, our community life director, will have a time of q and a with, Justin Giboney, our speaker tonight. Just to put on your calendar, in case they are not all ready, our next 2 will be July 19th, where Nick Ripken will come and share about the big three nonnegotiables from believers in persecution. So we'll get to hear stories about the persecuted church and what God is doing throughout the world.
Speaker 1:And then July 26th, Elizabeth Woodson will come and share about the gospel as a better story, and we'll hear more details about those 2 talk backs in the days ahead, but would love for you to come and join us. Tonight, I am particularly excited to introduce to you, our distinguished speaker, Justin Gibboni. He is an attorney in Atlanta and he, is a political strategist. He's the cofounder and president of the Anne Campaign, an organization that's committed to educating and organizing Christians for civic and cultural engagement that results in better representation, more just and compassionate policies and a healthier political culture, and wouldn't we all want all of those things? He is also the co author of Compassion and Conviction, the ant campaign's guide to faithful civic engagement, a book that has benefited me personally a great deal.
Speaker 1:He's also the co host of the church politics podcast. I wanted to share just briefly why I am so thankful for Justin, his work and for his willingness to come tonight. I think in a culture that is increasingly polarized, the demands that we make lasting permanent allegiance with a particular political party and that we, in turn, label the other party as the other or the enemy. I think that Justin, that Chris, the other members of the and campaign team think as biblically, as critically, they speak as winsomely and with such deep conviction as any believers that I've ever come across. They have challenged me deeply and made me rethink my own personal convictions to search the scriptures, to see if these things are so, and to humbly learn what the lord, would call me and what I hope he increasingly calls each and every one of us into lives of faithful biblical civil, civic engagement, for the love of our neighbor, for the glory of God.
Speaker 1:I also am grateful because in, this particular political climate, it is easy to become partisan or embittered, and I have just never sensed that from him or his team. So encourage you to listen to the lord speaking through Justin tonight, asking him to search your hearts, and asking him to lead us all to be more faithful lovers of our neighbors in this city that we all so deeply care about. I'm gonna pray for us and then if you would join me in welcoming Justin. Let's pray. Lord and our God, we are very aware that the conversation that we are about to have is a particularly difficult one and we pray that you would give us ears to hear from you.
Speaker 1:That we would listen intently to what you have to say to each and every one of us. That you would encourage us where we need to be encouraged, that you would, by your spirit, convict us where we need to be convicted. And lord, that you would lead us out of this place to be more faithfully engaged in Birmingham for the love of our neighbor. So we pray that you would speak clearly through Justin, and that you would use our time together tonight for your glory's sake and for the good of this city. We pray in Jesus name.
Speaker 1:Amen. If you would join me in welcoming Justin Gibney.
Speaker 2:Good evening, redeemer. How we doing out there? Good. Well, I wanna thank Matt. I wanna make sure I thank Matt, for that very kind introduction, and it's always good to hear that we're having an impact.
Speaker 2:I often would say when we when I first started the ad campaign before it was even launched, it was just me talking to myself. So it's always always good to hear that it is having an impact. Also, I'd like to thank, pastor Brook just for having me here because I don't, these are some tough subjects that we're, you know, about to get into. And I don't take it lightly when I'm entrusted to come have these conversations. When I'm entrusted to come speak to a church on these kind of issues, it can go wrong in a in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:And so you have to be careful about who you bring into the church, and I I appreciate being entrusted, with that opportunity. Because the tough part and and I've heard there's some diversity, you know, ideologically here. And the tough part about speaking to such diverse audiences, on cultural and political issues is making sure that it's substantive, while at the same time being considerate as much as you can of the sensitivities of different groups. That's something I'm not taking to consideration. One way to go about that is to be neutral.
Speaker 2:And some would say, well, do your best just just to be neutral. And I would disagree with that. I think that the gospel is not neutral. So you can't come into a situation trying to be neutral. So I can't promise you today neutrality.
Speaker 2:What I will try to bring, in this conversation is I will try to be impartial. Right? I will try to be constructive. And I think as we all speak about these serious issues, that we will try to try to do just the same, to be impartial, not neutral, but impartial. Also wanna give a shout out to my big son, Cooper, who made, the trip from Atlanta with me.
Speaker 2:Oh, what was that? Okay. There we go. So he made that trip with me, and I appreciate him. Alright.
Speaker 2:Let's let's, get this conversation started. I've been asked to talk about polarization, in our society and how Christians can be faithful within that polarization. So we're talking about our inability to find common ground, our inability to solve some issues because we can't see eye to eye enough to say, hey. We disagree, but how do we come together and work together? And when we wrote our book, Compassion and Conviction, one of the reasons that we wrote it, we wrote it for the for the church because we heard that some churches has actually had people fighting, literally fighting in their church about political issues.
Speaker 2:And we said, man, we need to, in some way, kinda add some perspective and a framework, articulate a gospel centered framework, to step into this conversation. And that's kind of what we've we've tried to do. And with 2024 coming up, there's another opportunity, to do this better or to return to some of the ways that I think, many of us, failed earlier. So I I wanna get this started, and I wanna start with a little bit of history. On January 6, 18 4 18 74, congressman Robert b Elliot, who was South South Carolina's, one of South Carolina's first black congressmen, gave what's been called the greatest, one of the greatest speeches in congressional history.
Speaker 2:This was during the reconstruction era. Right? Shortly after the civil war, when they were trying to kinda bring stubborn confederate states back into the union. And Elliott was responding to congressman Alexander Stevens. Congressman Alexander Stevens, was the former vice president of the Confederacy and the future governor of Georgia.
Speaker 2:And he was by his own, you know, statement, he was a supremacist. Right? So Stevens was staying true to form, and he was trying to shoot down the Civil Rights Act of 18/74. But when Elliott responded to him, much to his, dismay, Elliott eviscerated all of his arguments. He made a compelling constitutional and moral case for the expansion of civil rights.
Speaker 2:According to Philip Dray's book on reconstruction, the consensus of those in attendance was that he had demolished Stevens, exposing his pride and his prejudice. And Elliott was not only dismantling Stevens' arguments, but the let's think of the implications of this. Right? He he was, dismantling the arguments through a living illustration and disassembling the entire concept of this type of white supremacy at that time. Since a black man actually won the debate against someone who's considered the brains of the Confederacy, it kinda dissolved any thought behind this construct.
Speaker 2:It showed that this construct was about greed, hate, and malice. That it was a false god made by human hands. And so, you should look up that speech again, 18/74. I think you'll you'll find that it was incredible. And I and I still read it from time to time.
Speaker 2:But here's what's interesting about how after what he did after he gave that speech. About a month after Elliott gave that speech, he went back to South Carolina, and he spoke to his peers and his constituents. Many of them former slaves and so on. And he first acknowledged the dangerous and and precarious situation of the post civil war south. This wasn't an easy place to be for somebody like Elliot and others who were trying to fight for civil rights and and, equality in general.
Speaker 2:But listen to what he says to his peers and his constituents. He issues them not only support, not only, hey, guys. We can get through this and encouragement. He issues a challenge to them. He says this.
Speaker 2:He says, unless we arouse ourselves to our responsibilities, our power will be our condemnation. Now, these are people, many of whom had just been emancipated. Many of them were still living on plantations. It wasn't like he was saying that power had been equally distributed. Yet, Elliott was pointing to their agency.
Speaker 2:The idea that their decisions still mattered. That what little power they did have, they needed it stewarded well. That even though they were just emancipated, he was telling them that there is an expectation that what we have will be used in a constructive way. If not, even our small amount of power will become our condemnation. I think we need to evaluate how we've used our power.
Speaker 2:Because in this day and age, we tend to obsess about how much power others have and how they might be using it abusively. We have become experts in other people's misuses of power. But again, I think it's time to evaluate ourself if we really want to get rid of this polarization. Have we used our power to further things like the culture war? To perpetuate polarization?
Speaker 2:Or to show ourselves approved and validated by secular culture? Have we used our power to dehumanize our opponents? Has our power become our condemnation? Congressman Robert B. Elliott engaged a very polarized society.
Speaker 2:But he did so with boldness and persuasion. But he didn't just attack people like Stevens. He was also introspective, and he also did quite a bit of self examination. And if someone who was just whose people were just getting out of slavery can do that type of examination, then I think we can as well. But let's go to the scripture.
Speaker 2:I wanna, go over a bit of Acts 19. I'll go through Acts 19 verses 24 and then, also 32. Let me start a little early. I'll start with acts 198. And it reads, Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for 3 months arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2:But some of them became obstinate. They refused to believe and publicly malign the way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall at Taranis. This went on for 2 years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.
Speaker 2:Now over to 23. About that time, there arose a great disturbance about the way. A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in a lot of business for the craftsmen there. He called them together along with workers in related trades and said, you know my friends that we receive a good income from this business. And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia.
Speaker 2:Here it is. He says that gods made with human hands are no gods at all. There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty. When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting, great is Artemis of the Ephesians. Soon the whole city was in an uproar.
Speaker 2:The people seized Gaius and, Aristarchus, Paul's traveling companions from Macedonia. And all of them rushed into the theater together. Paul wanted to appear before the crowd, but the disciples would not let him. Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent a message sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater. The assembly was in confusion.
Speaker 2:Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there. Elliott's speech Elliott's speeches were often full of biblical illusions and gospel sensibilities. Unsurprisingly, there's precedent for his thoughtful and audacious public address in the bible. In fact, Apostle Paul might have served as an example for this type of bold brand of social engagement.
Speaker 2:In Acts 19, doctor Luke gives us an epic style look into how Paul maneuvered through treacherous territory. Here, Paul's ministry interacts with a number of arenas in society. He preaches in the synagogue to contrary congregants who weren't moved by learning or burning. He enters institutions of higher learning, and surprisingly, the gospel spreads across Asia through his dialogue in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. So it didn't spread in the church or the synagogue, but it did spread in institutions of higher learning.
Speaker 2:Interesting. In the marketplace, Paul's commentary on the insignificance of graven images disrupts the supply and demand of business economics. We then see unions and protests and cancel culture and riots and political fallout. And what are we to make of this? We see the polarization.
Speaker 2:For 1, Paul's witness was not disconnected from other spheres of life. Preaching the gospel was not at odds with engaging the public square. Most importantly, we see Paul engaging other systems of belief with biblical integrity and with the ultimate objective of spreading the gospel. This is the great commission in action. An extension of Jesus' work.
Speaker 2:Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and that wasn't detached from how He deliberately uplifted the marginalized. In the old testament prophets, we see prophetic words were sometimes indistinguishable from social action. It's an ongoing theme in the Bible. At the same time, the gospel was never limited to social action. Our faith certainly isn't less than a call to action.
Speaker 2:Christianity isn't lacking in the ethic to, in the ethic and imperative to do justice and set the oppressed free. But in the same breath, social action is nowhere near the whole of the gospel proposition. We can't subordinate the call to salvation and personal transformation. Now, we have to understand that this does not weaken the justice imperative. Rather, I think it undergirds and frames it.
Speaker 2:Even in our politics, we shouldn't be merely concerned about material things. For instance, we might be compelled to advocate for child nutrition programs, while understanding that they shall not live on bread alone. And that our public schools shouldn't become temples where moral foundations are undermined as a matter of course. We are called to something much greater than partisanship. Something much more profound.
Speaker 2:Our public witness must be more than just a tally of political winds. It should profess the whole council of God. If our public witness debates and protests, but does not forgive, if it votes and lobbies, but does not testify, if it bargains and barters, but doesn't set an unconditional standard of justice, if it threatens and punishes, but does not restore and redeem, then I would say that our public witness is delinquent. Is negligent. Acts 19 shows us that in the church, in the academy, in business, and in the civic arena, the gospel has something to say and if we're on our jobs, it must be accounted for.
Speaker 2:But it's not just what Paul did in those spaces that's important. It's how he did it. Verse 8 talks about him speaking boldly and persuasively. There's a level of courage, but also a level of interaction that gives others a chance to hear what he has to say. In acts 19, Paul goes into a space in Athens called the agora.
Speaker 2:The agora. This was the marketplace of ideas where the most thorough philosophers and debaters went to match wits and exchanged ideas. And let me tell you, this was a serious place. This was not for the ill prepared. It was not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 2:If you were sensitive, or you weren't quick on your feet, this was not the place where you wanted to go. They did not suffer fools lightly. Because the ideas that came out of the agora, again in Athens, would spread across the entire Roman Empire. But Paul was up for the challenge. The Bible says that he reasoned with them as was his custom.
Speaker 2:You see, he had studied the culture. He used their rhetorical devices to make a logical case for the gospel. Check this out, Paul even used the Socratic method, that's Socrates. This debunks the idea that Christianity somehow calls us to be anti intellectual. When your savior is the Logos, you're not at odds with logic.
Speaker 2:Christianity isn't at odds with logic. We just understand the limits of human logic. But I'd like to contrast this acts 17 scene with the chaos that we just heard in Acts 19. You see that contrast there? The bible says in acts 19 that the assembly was in confusion.
Speaker 2:Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of them did not even know why they were there. And I bet if you go to some of these rallies on the right or on the left and you really say, why are you here and what do you want to solve? Many people won't even be able to tell you. I think what's going on in Acts 19 is a decent description of some of the things that are going on in our very polarized landscape.
Speaker 2:Again, the assembly was in confusion. Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not know why they were there. While Paul's purpose and objectives were clear, here we see rage without a fully articulated cause or solution. We see a lack of direction.
Speaker 2:We see a thirst for blood, but not a thirst for knowledge. I'd submit that the culture war in America's discourse puts us in a similar brain dead state. But what is the culture war exactly? It's a sociopolitical battle between conservatives and progressives for the heart and soul of America. Each vying for control of America's values and norms.
Speaker 2:And let me tell you something about the culture wars. It's not that the issues don't matter. So some people would say, just let it go. We don't care about these issues. It's not that some of these issues are very important.
Speaker 2:But it's how we address them. It's what it brings out of us and how we respond to each other and what it makes us think of people on the other side. These are the things that we have to consider in this conversation. James Davidson Hunter actually coined the term culture war. And this he he talks about it being this, this this war between 2 sides and each trying to dominate the other.
Speaker 2:The hidden tribe study which came out years later, decades later confirmed that in America's discourse, that our discourse is controlled by 2 groups. It's controlled by progressive activists who are 8% of the population and devoted conservatives who are 6% of the population. So those 2 small groups control the discourse in the American conversation. They vehemently disagree about everything, but they have something in common, which they are very affluent, and they have time to address these issues. They frame the issues, and they set the terms of engagement.
Speaker 2:They control the reward and punishment mechanism in our culture, and in our politics. And they're so polarized that they've created what I believe is a false choice in society. Where we either have to support justice or moral order. Love or truth. Compassion or conviction.
Speaker 2:So today, we either have justice Christians on one side or morality Christians on the other. And I would challenge you today to look in the gospel and see if you think that's something that Jesus would approve of. Does he just tell us to care about issues that deal with what we would call morality, or does he just tell us to just focus on issues that we would say are about justice? Or do we see in the gospel those things being brought together? A conversation about love and truth.
Speaker 2:Well, let's look. I'll go to Ephesians 4 verses 14 through 15. Again, it's Ephesians 4 verses 14 to 15. And it reads, then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching, and the cunning and craftiness of people and their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is Christ.
Speaker 2:Speaking the truth in love. That is kind of the the foundational scripture of the and campaign. I'm I remember reading that and a light bulb just kinda going off in my head. Speaking the truth in love. Let's break that down a little bit.
Speaker 2:In Ephesians 4, apostle Paul is talking, obviously, to the church of Ephesus. We know this as the persevering church. Ephesus has endured a lot of suffering and also has false prophets who are trying to infiltrate the church with false teachings. Earlier in Ephesians, Paul is talking about being mature. When he talks about being mature, and he he talks about how we don't grow as individuals.
Speaker 2:We grow together and we share together, and that's how we mature. But this word mature that he's using means growth in mind and growth in understanding. Growth in knowledge of the truth, and growth in moral character. So he says that, once we mature, once we grow in knowledge of the truth, once we grow in moral character, then we will no longer be infants. Meaning, we will no longer be so malleable and impressionable, tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching.
Speaker 2:Paul is saying that mature Christians are not easily deceived. That these false teachers wouldn't be able to indoctrinate mature because mature Christians know what we stand for. Regardless of what false teachings are prominent, regardless of what's being said by popular opinion, and regardless, here's the big one, regardless of how much we're suffering, regardless of how bad we think our opponents are, mature Christians are able to speak the truth in love in all of those situations. Christians should never let their circumstances or the tactics of their opponents dictate who we are. This means that in all circumstances, we can be peacemakers.
Speaker 2:That no matter how bad it gets, we won't address others with contempt. That we won't scornfully address our opponents and act like they're worthless. My. What that might do to a polarized society. And everyone you know, one thing I connect this to is everyone nowadays has some way that they connect what they're doing or what they say to the civil rights movement.
Speaker 2:It's it's popular to do that right now. And I question though sometimes if we really understand what the civil rights movement was about. Because sure it was about people coming together. Sure it was about changing systems and institutions, but I think there was something underlying that was that was even more important. And what that was, was the idea that no matter how bad it got, no matter how evil or wicked your opponent was, you could never let them have a negative impact on your spirit.
Speaker 2:Because you could change the law. You could win a political battle, but if they had a negative impact on your spirit you had lost too much no matter how much you had gained in politics or culture. And if we don't understand that, we do not understand the spirit of the civil rights movement. It was never just about winning. It was never about the idea that somehow your cause justified your wicked actions.
Speaker 2:We need to understand that. So when we talk about speaking the truth in love, what we're talking about for the and campaign is a framework of engagement. A framework of engagement. We must always be able to speak the truth in love. And this doesn't just apply to our personal relationships, but also to our cultural and political interactions.
Speaker 2:Political and social ideologies are not all bad. So I have a heavy critique of progressivism and conservatism. The idea isn't that they're all bad. You can decide whether, progressivism or conservatism is best in a given situation. But what I can tell you is that they are not the gospel.
Speaker 2:And they should not be treated like they're infallible. They are made with human hands. One of the biggest factors, I believe, in our polarization is that too many conservatives and too many progressives do not know where their ideology can lead them astray. They do not understand where their ideology can go wrong. The truth is, those 2 prominent ideologies often separate love and truth.
Speaker 2:They treat them as if they're at odds. They treat them as if they're in conflict or somehow mutually exclusive. One side is supposedly all about love, if you ask them, and the other side is all about truth. Christians are are told to choose between the 2. If you remember anything from this conversation, I want you to remember that that is a false choice.
Speaker 2:Christians can choose a political party. That's fine. A Christian cannot choose between love and truth because they're not in conflict. As far as the gospel goes, they are interdependent. The late Tim Keller put it this way, and I I always appreciated this.
Speaker 2:He said that love without truth is sentimentality. It's overly emotional. It's lacking in substance. And that love without truth is harshness. It's mean.
Speaker 2:It's uncompassionate. We have been presented with a false dilemma. A false dichotomy. Our society has presented us with 2 wrong answers, and it's created a situation where we end up with the wrong responses. This broken world has separated love and truth.
Speaker 2:It separated justice from moral order. These ideologies tend to be either lacking in truth, or lacking in love, and as a result, when it comes to political ideology, to be conservative or progressive at all times and on every single issue, is not only intellectually lazy, which it is very intellectually lazy, it's also easily manipulated, and I would say that it's not faithful. And here's what I mean when I say that. Ideological conservatism and theological conservatism are not always the same thing. The far left's conception of justice is not always consistent with a biblical understanding.
Speaker 2:If we are conservative, when the time and the issue calls for change or the dismantling of old prejudice structures, then we are helping to maintain injustice. If we are progressive, when the moment calls for the regeneration or preservation of moral order, then we are complicit in society's rejection of truth. Let's get into this love truth framework. Let's start with the love and and and injustice side of this. We've been commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, and we can't do that unless we're willing to advocate for our neighbors well-being.
Speaker 2:And to protect their human dignity. And I think that's all a definition of social justice is. According to the great commandment, if you would want justice for yourself, if you would seek justice for yourself, then you must want and seek it for others. If we truly love our neighbors, we will be socially concerned about them. And that social concern will not just be some type of sentiment, bless your heart.
Speaker 2:It will be active and involve self sacrifice. You see, we have this big debate and we apparently, they say, supposedly have Christians who are against social justice. But I'm a tell you a secret, I don't believe them. I think we just have different definitions, and we just have different people who we apply social justice to. Some of us just limit it to people we care about and deny it to others, or deny it when it would inconvenience us.
Speaker 2:And here's what I mean. No one in here today is gonna allow someone in their family to be unjustly imprisoned and do nothing about it if it's in their sphere of influence. Nobody's gonna sit around and let that happen. No one in this church today is going to allow the children in their neighborhood to drink lead poisoned water if there's something that they can do about it. And why is that?
Speaker 2:Because we do believe in social justice. Because we believe that because we are made in the image of God, that there's a certain standard by which we should be treated in society. Any definition, and that's not an endorsement of every definition of it. But any, if that's the definition that we work by, Christians shouldn't have a problem with engaging in that way. We have to be socially concerned if we claim to have the love of Jesus in our hearts.
Speaker 2:We have to do for other people what they would do for us. If the folks on the other side of the tracks are having an issue with their water, having other issues, we should care just as much as as if it was in our area. Let's go to the truth side of this. So that was love. Let's go to the truth and more order side of this.
Speaker 2:In Ephesians 4:15, the term speak the truth speak the term speak the truth comes from the Greek word that refers to teaching or professing the truth as it relates to doctrine. Teaching or professing the truth as it relates to doctrine. This is not subjective. Everyone does not have their own separate truth. To speak the truth means to profess right doctrine and to be honest about how we recount events.
Speaker 2:We worship a God of moral order. We can see that in Genesis. God's truth provides us with direction and structure. In an ever changing world, his truth is unchanging. Now I know, and you know just as well as I do that when we're in an urban setting, a lot of people are striving to be seen as progressive.
Speaker 2:But I think when it comes to this truth conversation, although some progressives might get the justice part right, this is where they struggle. This is where they run into trouble. Because when we think of what it means to be progressive, what we're saying is to move forward or to fix things. And that can be good. But what I want to tell you is that being progressive is not the answer in every situation.
Speaker 2:For instance, if you're on the edge of a cliff, to progress or even lean forward probably isn't such a good idea. It's also a bad idea if you're already headed in the wrong direction. Sometimes God is asking us to stand firm on his word and preserve things and institutions that he's already established as good. And here's one way to think about it. Modern thought tells us that we can improve everything, But God's truth can't be improved.
Speaker 2:Think of it this way, you can think of God's truth like a Picasso. You cannot improve a Picasso. You can only deface a Picasso. If you go up to any masterpiece with a brush and some type of erasing agent, I don't care how good of an artist you think you are. If you add anything to it or you take anything away from it, you have made it worse.
Speaker 2:And so we have to understand no matter how intelligent or far we think we've come with our presentism, We cannot improve on God's truth and the truth doesn't belong to us. It doesn't come out of us. It's something that God reveals to us. So, right I wanna get into a few practical steps for engaging polarization, but I wanna leave you with this summary. 1st and foremost, we need to be able to look at ourselves and assess how we have stewarded our power.
Speaker 2:Has our power become our condemnation? We need to also understand that whether we consider ourselves the lean left or lean right, conservatism or progressivism are ideologies that were made with human hands. And that if you're on one side or the other, you at least need to be able to Because if you can't articulate it, then you have no way of knowing if you or those around you have been indoctrinated by something that is not the gospel. How can we also address issues with the love and truth of the gospel? And not let either side downplay love, truth, justice or moral order.
Speaker 2:To be on one side every time on every issue is intellectually lazy. You have no way of knowing that you haven't just outsourced your thoughts to someone else. If you knew what goes into the decisions and positions that ideological leaders make or partisan leaders make, you would never just want to follow them without thinking through the issue. Without thinking through the issue through a biblical lens. And I think that's a major way that we can help with some of the polarization.
Speaker 2:But as my time ends, let me give you a few things that are practical steps to ending polarization. Again, steward your power. Don't just assess others, turn around and look at your ideological tribe, and challenge and critique them. It'll be a much more effective way of changing things. And when you critique your side, you actually get credibility to say something to the other side.
Speaker 2:But we don't listen to each other because we see that we give our side a pass on everything, and we're hypercritical of everything the other side does. And I promise you, neither is perfect. The number 2 thing I would say is media hygiene. We tend to look at media sources that confirm our biases. I watch, I watch either CNN, or Fox News, or MSNBC because they're gonna say what I wanna hear.
Speaker 2:And they may give me a little more ammo in the next debate that I get into. Well, I don't think that's good citizenship. I don't think that keeps us informed. If you want to be an informed citizen, you should have conservative outlets, conservative speakers, progressive speakers, and progressive outlets that you're listening to. Not because you agree with them, but because you want to know the whole story.
Speaker 2:Let me give you a secret. Partisans do not tell you the whole story. They tell you what will make their side look the best. And so you need to go to other sources. And if you think that nobody on the other side is well meaning or intelligent, or maybe even smarter than you, then that tells me you haven't really engaged them.
Speaker 2:There are people who are intellectually honest and very intelligent on both sides. You don't have to agree with them, but you should hear them out. Next is very simple. Be civil. Civility is important in this democracy.
Speaker 2:We're not here to compel people. Like Paul, we're trying to persuade people. We have politics as rhetoric where we go out and we try to persuade people. The next thing I would say too is before we disagree with people, and this goes into media hygiene to some extent, before you disagree with someone, try to understand the good that they're trying to get at. Because sometimes we criticize other people and we, number 1, don't know their argument.
Speaker 2:Number 2, don't know what good that they see that they're trying to achieve. So a good discipline for us is saying, I may, at the end of the day, still disagree, but what good do you see coming from the way that you're going about this? And once you see that, you cannot, number 1, have a more informed conversation, but you can you can communicate with them in a better way. Okay? Very important.
Speaker 2:And this should have been number 1. I I really should have put this as number 1, but read your bible. Seriously. Because I hear people talk about justice and things like that, and I'm almost sure that they have never read the book of Amos. They don't know that he went into the public square, and he called out how they were treating the poor, and he called out partiality in the courts.
Speaker 2:If that's not someone addressing justice in a social context, I don't know what is. And then we have people who talk about Jesus. We have, I guess, red letter Christians that only follow Jesus, but I'm not sure that they even listened to Jesus. Because Jesus loved, but Jesus did not coddle. And if you look at some of the conversations he had, he was very clear about what the truth was, even if in that moment, it might not be what the person wanted to hear.
Speaker 2:He was committed to the truth. And no one loved better than he did. So if we think we love better than he does because we're changing doctrine, or we're not committed to the truth, I question that. And here's one last thing too. Anytime someone comes to you, and they're promoting any ideology or any system, whether it be progressivism, conservatism, critical race theory, socialism, capitalism, any of it.
Speaker 2:Make sure you ask them how that particular ideology or system
Speaker 3:can go astray. And if
Speaker 2:they can only promote it but they can't tell you where it goes astray, then they're not someone you should be listening to. Because that's a pretty good indication that they themselves have been indoctrinated. And you better believe, there are none of these systems that we've touched and that people have theorized, that are straight out of the gospel. And so Christians need to know what to beware of in those situations. But I do think this is one way that we can be faithful within a polarized society.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Justin, really excited to continue to hear from you, as you've already given us a lot to think through. A lot of questions coming in here about, a lot of ways to just actually apply this practically in our realm. And I think far and away, the area that we saw the most questions or seen the most questions, is specifically in regards to voting. Largely looking at in a 2 party system, where so many of us might not see fully eye to eye or find a faith or what we would deem as a fully faithful representation of Christianity in the Bible. What does it look like for us in a 2 party system to vote in a way that is God honoring, when we don't necessarily find a candidate that we love, but also don't see a great way forward with voting 3rd option?
Speaker 2:That that's a great question. And first, I think it's always helpful to to provide perspective. The presidential race and who you vote for there is not the whole of your public witness. So it's important. You should care about it.
Speaker 2:And I know because we usually only have 2 real choices, it can be kind of nerve wracking and you never feel you know, you don't feel great about it. But just remember, that's not the whole of your public witness. And voting isn't the whole of your public witness. So there is a stage before you vote, which is when you're looking at the candidates or you're supporting certain candidates or promoting certain candidates. Right?
Speaker 2:You gotta take participate in that. Right? To make sure that you get the kind of candidates that you want. And then there's something that happens after it, which is holding people accountable. So once you make that choice and sometimes you only have, you know, 2 people to vote for them.
Speaker 2:Once you make that choice, what we tend to do is once we vote for somebody, we just kinda defend them because we're kinda justifying ourselves. I would say that we have even more of an obligation to hold that person accountable. So rather than just kinda and and I wrote an article on this even about, Obama. And I've said that to myself, I was more interested in defending somebody than actually always holding them accountable. And that's how Christians have to think about it.
Speaker 2:No politician, especially on the national level, is there just for you to defend them. They're okay. They got staff and they got all kind of people, campaign, all these folks that can defend them and put out campaigns that, you know, change your mind about them. That's not our job. Our job is to hold them accountable.
Speaker 2:The other thing I would say is look more to the local local elections. You have different choices. You can have a larger impact. You can it's not as partisan. Right?
Speaker 2:So we can have an impact there that's actually more direct and might be more significant to your neighbor. And so that's how I think about it. Put it in context. Do the best you can with the choices that you're given. Remember, there's something that comes before that.
Speaker 2:There's something that comes after that. And you have your local and state politics, which you can approach differently and especially on a local level, have a a greater impact on what's going on.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And appreciate you sharing that. And actually, I'd like to kind of ask a follow-up when you talk about the local level. Because I imagine seeing some of this in the questions, that for a lot of us, it can feel almost defeatist of how little impact it feels like we can make in such a polarized society, like you said, where such a small percentage seem to be dictating the conversation. Love to hear if you have recommendations on what are practical ways for us to be engaged in the political and social spheres outside of just who we vote for.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, number 1, politics in a democracy is not meant to be an individual endeavor primarily. It's meant to be done in in groups. You need to you need sometimes, if you really wanna have an impact, you have to organize. But you don't have to organize thousands of people necessarily.
Speaker 2:I don't think people realize that if you take 6 people, 5 people, and go to the school board consistently, somebody's gonna listen to you. You will have an impact on what's going on there. So sometimes you focus on the small things. Right? You sometimes you have to do kind of a community assessment and say, okay.
Speaker 2:What are the needs? How can I get a group who are concerned about this? And maybe it's a group of 15 or whatever, and 3 of us or whatever go to the city council or what every single time, write letters, things of that nature, and that really gets you engaged. Now that's not the only way to be engaged, but I think that's a really good start. Just understanding smart enough starting on a small level and being consistent can go a long, long way.
Speaker 2:And then just informing people. I think 4 churches and 4 organizations, just having forums, having the police chief, or having others come in and speak to, and speak to people, that's that's civics. I mean, that's that's a very important part of what we're trying to do, keep people informed.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And you're starting to talk about it, but love, you kind of said, good starting point right there. And I imagine there's some of us who are sitting here, and hearing the truth of what you're saying, hearing the value and the importance of being engaged in the culture war and the conversations at large. But at large, you probably asked that question, well, where do I start? I know you just mentioned a few, but could you speak a little more to that?
Speaker 3:For someone who's in here who's maybe really thinking about some of this from the first time as it pertains to them, where are some ways for us to start?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, you have to be informed. I think one of the worst things that you you could do is say, oh, this issue sounds cool and just jump into it, and you don't even really know what's going on. And people would love to have you join them, and they may not be telling you the whole story. Right? So you have to be informed.
Speaker 2:Read your local newspaper. Like, take a month and just start reading your local newspaper, once a week and learning as much as you can about it. Just attend some city council meetings. Or if you can't attend because we don't all have that much time. That's something else we deal with.
Speaker 2:You might just choose a day to look over the agenda for the city council meeting. See what they're talking about. See what issues are there. And I think that's a really good start to getting engaged. And then when you get a little further and you feel you're informed, look to see what organizations are around.
Speaker 2:There's a, you know, a and campaign chapter here here in, in Birmingham. I almost said Atlanta. And look, join other people to engage in a real way. You don't have to recreate the wheel necessarily, but you do have to be informed and you do have to just start to engage in that way. Something else that you can do too if you really wanna get into politics even more is just research some campaigns and volunteer for a campaign.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that you have to be there every day or anything like that. Usually, they let you kinda schedule. They're happy to have you whenever they can have you. But it'll give you a view into the political system in the way that you probably haven't seen before.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think that's fantastic. And like to hear, as you're talking about being informed, a couple of thoughts. First though, you mentioned the and campaign. I know Matt mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3:Do you mind just sharing a little bit more about what the and campaign is? And whether or not I imagine that's something to be really beneficial for us to know a little more about?
Speaker 2:Sure. So just so you know, as you heard before, my background, I'm an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta. I've been running the campaign for a long time. And the and campaign is a Christian civic organization. And what we're trying to do is raise civic literacy, so we want Christians to understand the process better so they engage in a better way.
Speaker 2:But, also, we're trying to reframe the issues. We're trying to get Christians to be less partisan and less ideological and more focused on biblical principles. Because we think, sadly, the polarization in society is the same polarization and divide that's in the church. And we shouldn't be reflecting that because we have the same great commission. We have the same great commandment.
Speaker 2:We have a lot in common. We should be able to take the time and see what we have in common and talk to each other even if we're on different sides of the aisle instead of communicating through intermediaries in the way that we tend to do. So if what if all I know about conservatives is what I see on MSNBC, then I probably don't have a good understanding even of people in my own faith and what they're really thinking. Right? So what we're trying to do is is bridge some of those divides, but get us to start thinking biblically, instead of through a partisan lens.
Speaker 2:And that's a lot of why I critique very seriously the left and the right. But we also do training. We we wanna be a resource to the church when it comes to engaging, and so we have a Christian Civic Leadership Academy where we are training, Christians, to either run for office, to run campaigns, or to even to run their community group. And so we're going through our 2nd cohort is actually they're actually having their, final their final session today. That'll be our 2nd court.
Speaker 2:We'll have another one next year, but it is a way if you really want to engage in a deeper way to to get involved. We have our whole life, committee, where they talk about abortion, and we're really trying to correct that narrative. I think, it's a it's a lot of women who are trying to speak into that issue for themselves to say, it's not either choosing the woman or the baby. How do we choose both? And how do we show that the sanctity of life is more than just one choice?
Speaker 2:It's a lot of other things that go into it, and there's policies that we can, support that may impact how a woman chooses because we care about that issue. So those are just some of the things we do. We do a lot of messaging, a lot of content, and we're trying to really, again, get Christians to see politics through a different lens and question their side of the aisle so that they can be more faithful in the in the conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you for the work that you guys are doing, and may the Lord continue to establish the work of your hands as you go forward in that. And because you do did kind of mention the abortion issue, we did have one question, come in which reads, I don't advocate for abortion, but I wasn't celebratory when Roe versus Wade was overturned because it took away women's rights. As a Christian, is there a right response? I love to hear just, in general when it comes to abortion and a range of feelings, emotions, beliefs going into that. Are there ways that are helpful to think about that and respond as we continue to have decisions around abortion?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's I think we have to let that be a complicated issue, but not so complicated that we're not clear from a moral standpoint on it. I think Christians have to see every abortion as a tragedy. It it's not something that we want to see happen. At the same time, we need to understand that a lot of women who are in tough situations think that's their best option.
Speaker 2:And and what we try to communicate is, not to say that it's easy or to say just just just have the baby, but to say, god has something greater for you than that. Right? And so that that's not the choice we ever wanna see a woman make, and we wanna be very clear about that. Now as we address it in policy, so we are we are pro life. We believe in the sanctity of life.
Speaker 2:As we address it through policy, yes, there's the legal side of whether you can do it or not, the yes or no, that in some sense, Roe dealt with. Although Roe just passed it to the state, so it didn't make a final decision. So it so Roe didn't take didn't take the right away. It just said that it's not the right in the constitution. It pushed it down to the states.
Speaker 2:So the states get to make that, make that decision. That's one part of it, and that's an important part of it, what the courts do, what these now these states do. But what are the issues that impact that? So if you go to states like Mississippi and other states, when you look at maternal mortality for for black women, that's a big deal. If you look at why most women have abortions because they're not financially, you know, financially stable, and they don't know if they'll be able to feed a child, things like that.
Speaker 2:How do we impact those questions so that women are in a better situation? That's how we're trying to get people to think about it. We're we're not just about is this policy and move and go with it. We think there can be some differences in opinion. We think you as a Christian, you have to value.
Speaker 2:I don't see how you could not have that value of life. But as far as what the specific policies are surrounding that issue that in that impact that issue, there could be some disagreements on whether, you know, child tax credits or health care is a big issue, and how should we make health care more accessible? It's not just about saying you have to go with this policy, but it is showing a value for the child, but also the woman involved in the conversation. And that's how we've tried to address
Speaker 3:it. Well, thank you for sharing and speaking into that. I'd love as you say, even from your perspective, your understanding, and I'm inclined to agree that there's not a good way for a Christian not to be supportive of life. Love to hear. Abortion's obviously one of the big ones that gets talked about, but are there other big issues out there or small issues that you think you often see Christians and potentially even Southern Christians in missing, clear truth on?
Speaker 3:Or areas where you see that, Christians are too black and white on certain things that would stand to have some more grace and mutual understanding?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, one thing that's always, like, a third rail is the LGBTQ conversation and and the, you know, transgender ideology. And I think the first things that that Christians have to do when we engage that issue is engage it with a broken heart, which is to me acknowledging how often the church had gotten that wrong in the past. The people who were, you know, who went to church, who who were same sex attracted went to a church and didn't feel like they were loved or those who were, you know, dying of AIDS and there was no church or anyone that reached out to them. If we can't approach that conversation with a broken heart, I don't think we're ready to approach it.
Speaker 2:And here's why the culture war prevents us from doing that. Because the culture war is all about proving how right we are and how right we've been throughout history on everything. And to admit that we got something wrong is to lose a point. And so we look at the scoreboard. I can't lose that point, so I have to pretend that I got all this right.
Speaker 2:That's not how Christianity works. And so I think, first of all, we have to enter that with a broken heart, but then we have to understand that doctrine matters and that there is God has a design, and he has something he has something for us. And we have to understand that whether it's homosexuality, transgenderism, that's no different than sexual sin when it comes to heterosexuals either. Right? So so I think we have to talk about it in a more comprehensive way, but with a broken heart because we made some serious mistakes, and we need to listen.
Speaker 2:And we may need to even know, even with some of the pressure that's on the church on this issue, maybe we needed some pressure. Maybe we wouldn't have changed or had any compassion unless we had some pressure. And I think we need to think about that too, but we have to care about people. We have to understand that doctrine matters, but the Bible is not just a treatise of black letter law. It doesn't just say that's wrong and that's the end of the conversation.
Speaker 2:The gospel says, yes, that's wrong, but what about the human being And how can we treat them as a human being and love them and not be hypocrites and act like their brokenness is so much different than our brokenness?
Speaker 3:Really, really helpful. And I could go a little off script or not ask on this one. Would love to hear as you talk about seeing the truth in scripture, but how it's not always as clear as this black and white letter law. I know earlier you mentioned Amos, but are there either parts of scripture do you think are maybe under read by Christians that would really help in this area? Or are there certain questions you think would be helpful for us be asking as we're reading scripture or things to be looking for that would really inform us as we talk about some of these things?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think most of it is under read. Right? It's hard to it's hard to point to 1. But but I would say this, I would say for conservatives, I would, you know, for people who struggle with the conversation about just justice in the social context, I would read through Amos.
Speaker 2:I'd read through Jeremiah and Isaiah. And if you can still say that they're not what they're doing isn't justice in the social context, I don't you know? I think there's just need to be a a little more prayer because that's what's happening there. But there are bounds to it. Right?
Speaker 2:That it's not just again, it's not the social gospel. It doesn't replace personal personal, transformation and salvation, but that doesn't mean it's important. And we gotta stop seeing the salvation and the social action as being at odds. Right? We know one's the most important, but that doesn't, but how we engage other people really gives us an opportunity to evangelize.
Speaker 2:And when we don't do justice and when our politics are really just about us, it tells people something. It makes it a lot harder to evangelize and it should because it indicates that we might not be doing it for the right reason. And I I so I think that's important. What's another scripture that I think could be read more? I really I really think more people need to read Acts 19.
Speaker 2:I think that acts 19 that I went over earlier, just the chaos and how people weren't even worried about the truth at all. They didn't even know what was happening. They were just screaming and yell you know, they're just trying to get this frustration out. And one thing one thing that shows us is how silly that can be. But another thing you should show us is and I I talk about this in my book that's about to come out.
Speaker 2:What were they going through? They had to be hurting. And maybe they weren't articulating it right, but we don't need to dismiss them. Right? Like, so some there are people who are uninformed that are just venting and purging something, and it may be through the wrong words or through the wrong cause.
Speaker 2:But Christians have to say, what is what's there that I'm missing and how is this person hurting? And not just dismiss them and say, you're stupid. You don't know what you're talking about. Let's move on. Why are they in a place where they don't know what's going on, but they're still trying to purge something inside of them?
Speaker 2:There's a need there.
Speaker 3:And if I could back up something you said at the start of that answer. And sorry, I feel like I'm taking you on a very haphazard path here. But you mentioned 2 things. 1, you mentioned how we as Christians have to be willing to lose some points. Then you also in there, started talking about how this can be a door for evangelism.
Speaker 3:And while I anticipate some of that would be tied in, how could you see kind of these conversations and engaging on these levels leading us into evangelism for the ultimate things we care of seeing the gospel furthered?
Speaker 2:No. That's great. Again, the culture war teaches us that it's a zero sum game. That at every move, you're either losing something or you're winning something. That's not the gospel.
Speaker 2:And one of the ways that I put it is that our witness is always more important than the win. Because let's be honest, a political win in most cases, in many cases, is somewhat temporary. It can be reversed. It can be eroded, but our witness really lasts. Our witness tells people who we represent.
Speaker 2:And so for us to squander or for us to have a witness that is broken and that is selfish or that is, belligerent and then think we really got something by winning, I think we're missing the point. And so I'm a political strategist. I want I'm not saying don't want to win. These issues have these issues are serious. Right?
Speaker 2:Some of these are life and death issues, but your witness is actually what's gonna help you evangelize. And so and there's some instances where people might look at the church and say, the way they lost makes me wanna understand what they rep like, who they are. How did they do that? How did they lose on that issue and respond in that way? That makes me wanna know who they are, whereas sometimes a win makes people wanna run away from you, shows them that you only care about yourself.
Speaker 2:And so I think when it comes to evangelism, our public witness is not just what we say, but it's what we do. It's our attitudes, and it impacts whether people are open to that conversation. Now the the work is done primarily by God, but we have to do what we can to create the best situation for us to be able to speak to folks and bring them into the body in that way because he does that work through us. And we just sometimes have to put a better face on, and and just love people more and not be so worried not not be so concerned about ourselves.
Speaker 3:Appreciate the thought though, hearing you speak and the wisdom and tact and winsomeness you speak with. Anticipate you're not losing very often, but I appreciate you still speaking into that. Well, I know we're getting a little short on time, and so a couple that were frequently asked that I do wanna go back to. And a lot of these are more on the kinda national politics and, political discussion level. But one of the frequent questions on here was asking about outlets you would recommend or voices you recommend we would listen to.
Speaker 3:So love to hear, especially if you're able to offer on both conservative and progressive side, if there are news outlets or voices or books or resources you would heavily push us towards.
Speaker 2:Sure. For sure. So first of all, turn off cable news. And I I say that seriously. I mean, it's it's propaganda.
Speaker 2:It's meant to have you coming back, and the model that they use is just not conducive to giving you good information and giving you both sides. Turn it off. There's tons of great podcasts. And, again, it's not about agreeing with everybody. I think, breaking points on you can get it on a Spotify or YouTube is a good one.
Speaker 2:I I don't agree with everything they say, but they're bringing you news that you're just not gonna see in mainstream media. The hill, rising on the hill, which you can also get as a podcast is one that's good to look at. For people who are progressive, I would read people like Ross Douthit for the from the New York Times. He's, an orthodox, you know, Catholic, and he's very thoughtful and intellectually honest. And I think that's so so important.
Speaker 2:Damon Leiker, Matt Iglesias, if you're a conservative, these are people that you can read, again, not to agree with them, but to hear the other side. And I think they have a commitment to veracity. They they have a commitment to be intellectually honest. So those those are some good ones. And once you kinda follow start following those people, you'll see others who are who are doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:But you cannot just listen to one side or the other and think that you're informed. You're not gonna get the whole side of the story.
Speaker 3:And I hope and pray that that would be us. But the reality is also know that a lot of us have family members or people in our city or in our circle, that are gonna be extremely, ingratiated on one side. And so love to hear advice you'd have on how to engage in conversations, with those that lean really heavily on one side of the spectrum there.
Speaker 2:Know that your political differences, first and foremost, aren't as important as your relationship. And so I think you have to enter that being ready to listen. Too often, we enter into conversations with people we disagree with with these in a in a posture of self defense. And we wanna leave that conversation not be having to having lost any points or not being able to be blamed for anything. And you just can't have a real conversation like that.
Speaker 2:So you need to have a posture of self examination, be able to listen to them. And sometimes, maybe the first few times you speak, all you're doing is affirming in what they're saying, what you can affirm. Like, what whatever you can honestly affirm, you're like, you know what? You got a point on that, and you don't need to get into the argument or, promote your side at that time. Just show them you care that you're willing to hear them out and that you're willing to diffuse the conversation by not by coming in and saying, I'm not trying to call you stupid.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying trying to say you get everything wrong. I'm willing to examine myself and my side of the conversation. When you show people that you're willing to do that self examination, it it actually opens them up to do the same thing. But you can't go into the conversation at Thanksgiving or whatever trying to win and think that that's gonna turn out well. We've all done it, and we all know that it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And so sometimes you just need to listen and be humble and some you know, being around people that are humble and willing to listen to you makes you a little bit more humble. And and so I think that's a good way to go about it.
Speaker 3:Great. Thank you. I think I've got just 2 or 3 more for you. This next one kind of the reverse of that, but especially with majority of us here living in Birmingham. City that's well documented both historically and in modern day, with a good degree of segregation, not only racially, but also socioeconomically and politically.
Speaker 3:What does it look like for us to engage with, and love others with different views, different backgrounds, different experience as well, when oftentimes we're not naturally engaging with or relating them on another day. Where do we go and how do we go about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, you know and I think churches have a big role in this. And whenever you can go to another, you know, bible believing church and just try to start building relationships. I mean, one thing you can do during the political season sometimes is if you're gonna throw a forum and you're gonna have people talk about issues, if you can partner with another church, that's good. If you can partner with a, you know, a a church that has a different demographic, that's good.
Speaker 2:Try to do that. And just try to listen to people and and hear them out. Again, it's not about being the savior of some, some other group. It's about hearing what their needs are and where they come from. And I think churches are in a good place to help us do that, and and bring people together, because too often, we go into these situations and we're trying to accomplish too much.
Speaker 2:And, really, sometimes all you need to accomplish is a relationship and let God build it from there. You know?
Speaker 3:Great. And then, kind of the last or more or less last question. With I guess, us probably, I think, 16 months out from an election right now and knowing there's a lot coming down, would promise to be really polarizing yet again and already has been. What would you hope that we as Christians would never be thinking about as we prepare for another big election season and increasing polarization that will likely come with it?
Speaker 2:Just remember that God is in control. You will do better helping people get informed, responding to people kindly than attacking people. Nobody's gonna change their mind when you attack them. And so be very careful of what you retweet. Be very careful of what you're sharing, of what you're repeating.
Speaker 2:Don't just take a headline and run with it before, again, you've had some media hygiene and see what the other side has to say about it. I can't tell you, being on the inside of politics, I can't tell you and there's very well meaning and thorough people in media, but I can't tell you how many times if you really know something that happened and then you hear how it's reported, how wrong it is. I mean, it it it is incredible to be on the inside, to be in a campaign and then hear them talk about what's happening. And it's like you just made that up. Right?
Speaker 2:Like, seriously. So don't just be quick to respond and don't share things that are not constructive. If it's not constructive, even if you agree with it, leave it alone. I think there is room to engage. Right?
Speaker 2:I engage people all the time. You can try to correct people in certain ways, but you gotta be you gotta be careful about how you do that. Because there there are times where there's bad information and maybe you can pull them aside and say, that's not what we need to hear. The public discourse doesn't mean always agreeing. So there are there are ways to critique people and things of that nature.
Speaker 2:Just make sure you're doing it in a in a constructive way. And that's something all of us, you know, have to work out and be, vigilant about.
Speaker 3:Well, certainly have given us plenty to chew on and meditate on and, hopefully, receive in our hearts and put into practice in the days, weeks, months ahead. Anything else that we didn't ask or that you'd wanna leave us with before we wrap up here?
Speaker 2:No. I think you did a I think you did a pretty good job. I I would just ask that everybody one thing that I would add to this is is one another good discipline is listening if you lean right or lean left, listening at least 5 to 10 things that your side gets wrong. And if you struggle to do that, if you can't do that, you need to read some other people. You need to kinda focus in on that a little more because they both sides get a whole lot of things wrong.
Speaker 2:And I think it brings us some humility and shows we're actually informed and not indoctrinated when we're able to create that list. Well,
Speaker 3:thank you. It really is, incredibly encouraging and really helpfully convicting, I imagine, for a lot of us hearing from you today. Pray that it won't be the last time that we hear your voice, whether in person or, from afar. But it has been an incredible joy to have you with us, and even more as a joy and an honor to know that while we likely agree on a lot, disagree on others, we are ultimately laboring to the same end. And so thank you for coming and for just your faithful ministry.
Speaker 3:May it continue to increase and grow. May we and many others continue to be blessed by it. So, I gotta ask for a round of applause. Thank you so much. Thank you all
Speaker 2:for having me.
Speaker 3:Justin. Okay. And before we head out, just to close this, sorry. That's on me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:My bad. Should have just shouldn't have had me up here. Should have just let him see the questions and decide. But to close, could I ask, would you mind just praying for us in our church? And then, could I just pray for you and what Anne campaign is doing as well?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Great. If you'd like to lead us.
Speaker 2:Dear Lord, I I thank you for this moment. I thank you for this church and people who came together to try to seek how to do the right thing. And that's the first step, just orienting our hearts to learning, to wanting to do better, to admitting that there are things that we could do better. You have given us all some power. You've given us all the ability to treat people well, the ability to have some impact in our sphere of influence.
Speaker 2:And I just pray that you open eyes. I just pray that you open ears and allow us to see you in us, even in those who represent themselves in the worst way, even in those who seem like characters, can we be able to see the image of God in them and to never have contempt for others? There'll be arguments. There'll be disagreements, lord, but I ask that we edify and that we we love before we we judge or condemn. So, lord, thank you for, this group.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the opportunity to speak, to them, lord. May they continue to seek, and may they continue to do the work to to to get us through this this polarization. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
Speaker 3:And, Lord, we pray for our brother Justin, and his family, and for those who he labors alongside. God, we thank you for, what you've done, and being faithful to them, and we thank you for the work that you're faithfully doing through, Justin and those around them. God, we know though that unless you build the house, the laborers labor in vain. And so god, all of our best efforts, all of our best intentions are fruitless and meaningless apart from you. So, god, I ask, for your presence, your spirit.
Speaker 3:Or for you to just move and work and to continue to establish the work of his hands. Gotta pray for him and for the Anne campaign and the many other avenues through which he impacts and ministers, his legal career and, his work in politics and strategy. God, I just pray you would continue to lead and guide him. God, I pray that just as you have so clearly allowed him to faithfully respond to the calls you put on his life, Lord, I pray that you would continue to sustain him in that, and you would use him. God, I pray that you would give many, who would come and, be ready to hear.
Speaker 3:Lord, you would give many open ears and open eyes around him and many who would be receptive to his message, both those who would agree and who would disagree. And, god, I pray lord, that you would just use him for the work you've set him forth forward. God, I thank you for the blessing it's been to hear from him. I pray, lord, for safe return home for him and for his son. I gotta pray for them to continue to see you, for you to give them more of yourself in a way that leads him into both grace and truth, so that he could be a beacon of grace and truth.
Speaker 3:Just as he has been for us tonight. And, god, would it all be to the glory of your name, and, god, as we go, would we continue to glorify that name, being ready to receive that which you've spoken to us tonight. Lord, and faithfully walk as you've called us to. So, God, we love you and pray that you'd help each of us to love you more as the gospel takes front and center stage, as we both see and display it prominently. Lord, we pray this all in the good, and in the working, and in the surely victorious name of Jesus.
Speaker 3:Amen. Well, thank you guys so much for coming. And one more time, Justin, thank you for coming here.
