Summer Talkback Series - Joshua Chatraw on Telling a Better Story
Download MP3Good evening, everyone. We are so excited to have you guys here for our 4th and final talk back of the summer weather. You've made it to all 4. Congratulations. Proud of you.
Ford Galin:Or this is your first one. We are really excited to be here with you guys tonight. In a few moments, we are gonna welcome up, doctor Joshua Chateau. If you've seen his name written, just you were wrong and how you thought it was pronounced, but it's gonna be an absolute blessing to get to hear from him tonight. Doctor Chetro serves as the Billy Graham chair for evangelism and cultural engagement, if I got that definitely too long title right, at Beeson Divinity School.
Ford Galin:And so he's a professor over there as well as a decorated author, a frequent speaker. He served in a number of universities and, in a number of different ministries both in the church world and academia up to now. But I've actually got to know him a good bit over the last year. I'm in his or his mentor group at BSN, and I can easily say that he has been one of the wisest, and most mature and skillful believers I've ever talked to, especially when it comes to what it looks like to engage with our cultural moment in an evangelistic way of trying to bring the gospel in our neighborhoods and to neighbors around. Yeah.
Ford Galin:What's been incredible for me is over the last years, I've sat in his office weekly as part of this group where he's poured into a number of us who are pursuing vocations in ministry. Despite talking to one of the wisest men I've had the good pleasure of knowing, it feels a lot more like chatting like a friend. Doctor. Chitrault has an enormous amount of wisdom, an enormous amount of training, yet at the same time approaches it with a humility, that comes from simply being in awe of his savior and his redeemer. So very excited to hear from him with the expertise and wisdom he can offer.
Ford Galin:Yet more than that, very excited to just hear from a faithful brother and friend, that is truly a joy to have in the kingdom and to have his family in Christ. So I won't belabor an introduction, but I'll pray and then after that, if you'll welcome him up with a round of applause. But first, pray with me. Lord, God, we thank you for the joy and grace it is that we get to be here tonight. That we get to break bread and to share fellowship with one another and for the many blessings that, you provided in the form of family at this church.
Ford Galin:And God, we also thank you for the joy it is to get to come here and hear, from one of your children, especially one you have gifted and entrusted so much to. So, Lord, I pray that you would just use tonight in the ways that you see fit, to grow our wisdom, yet also grow, our hearts for you. Lord, in ways that would lead us to, like a skilled master builder, move forward in the ways that we engage culturally with those around us, or in ways that would hopefully see the gospel furthered, and brought to those who we long to see to know you more or to know you more fully. Lord, I also pray tonight that you'd use this time to lead us in worship of you. God, you'd remind us of your goodness, your kingdom, your mission.
Ford Galin:And Lord, in that, we could just celebrate and praise and glorify your name all day long. So whatever you have in store for this next little time, it's yours not ours. So do you do with it what you will, for our good and for your glory. Lord, we praise you. We pray that all in the good and strong and present name of Jesus.
Ford Galin:Amen.
Joshua Chatraw:Thanks, Ford. Alright. Well, thanks for the introduction, Ford, and thanks for showing up with the Olympics zone. And it's, you know, it's all taped, by the way, by this time. You're just watching reruns.
Joshua Chatraw:Okay? So the title I've been giving is telling a better story or, by the way, you should have a handout with some of this that you don't have to take notes, but if you want to, that's kind of outline of where we're going. Or I think I have something like Oh. I forgot what I have on the sheet. An update.
Joshua Chatraw:Or somebody tell me what we have on there. It's not the way you want to start a talk. What? Reflections on Evangelism and Apologetics. Thank you.
Joshua Chatraw:Reflections. I don't have my own sheet. Thanks, Ben. Reflections on Evangelism, Apologetics, and Post Christendom, which I will just have to say is off putting, which is why that's not the the lead title. The lead title is telling a better story.
Joshua Chatraw:And it's off putting because it sounds dry and overly academic and because if we're honest, for many of us, evangelism can be a scary word. And if scary is too strong of a word, perhaps the right term is anxious. The evangelism can make us anxious. It's a bit like the dread that accompanies going to the dentist. My apologies.
Joshua Chatraw:There's probably 5 dentists in here. I'm just offended. But it's something we feel we should do and maybe even we will do, but for many of us, we're just not looking forward to it. Of apologetics, defending and commending the faith, most people I talk to aren't exactly sure how to even get into a productive apologetic conversation. Because let's face it, persuading anyone these days of anything important is hard.
Joshua Chatraw:Just ask yourself, when was the last time someone persuaded you in a conversation of something that was really important and changed your mind? Think about that for a second. And if that doesn't do it for you, I have another to try to convince you that persuasion is hard. Here's another trick. Hab kids.
Joshua Chatraw:Wait until they're 10 15. Those happen to be my kids' ages. And try to convince them of just about anything. Sure. Now as a good parent, I can make my kids do things.
Joshua Chatraw:Absolutely. But persuading them, convincing them that I have something good to offer them and I actually am telling them to do something that is of their best interest, that tests every fiber of my ability as, well, a professional apologist. And I'm their dad. So in the best of circumstances, in trusted relationships, persuasion can be difficult. But right now, in our time, as many of you know, we have we're experiencing shrinking circles of trust.
Joshua Chatraw:And in a post Christian society, increasingly so, Christianity is viewed as an oppressive myth from the past, a kind of leftover. And so within this climate, evangelism and apologetics can feel let's just be on honest overwhelmingly hard and sometimes just downright scary. And I think it's important for us just to take a deep breath and name that. It doesn't mean you're less of a Christian. It doesn't mean that the Lord loves you any less, but it can feel that way to many of us.
Joshua Chatraw:Us to isolate ourselves, to avoid gospel conversations. It can be a temptation for, professionals like me and pastors and teachers to get comfortable simply talking theology in the safe confines of church to other Christians and in our Christian classrooms. But many Christians in the West, I suspect many of you in this room, don't feel the luxury to remain insulated. For the father absent, For the college student burden over his lost friends, for the worker who finds himself asked by his co workers about his faith and isn't sure how to respond For such as these engaging culture, thinking through evangelism, all of these things, they're not a theoretical exercise, but it's very practical thing for us to wrestle with. After naming the challenge, after naming maybe this feeling that you have.
Joshua Chatraw:I do I am here hopefully tonight to offer you some good news. There are still some kind of flavors of apologetics that stuck in a kind of over rationalistic and theoretical mode. But really what's what's happening, one of the trends in my field is apologetics and evangelism are coming together. And the good news is I think that there's a kind of awakening in the force. There's these new challenges that Christians face, And yet, the Lord seems From my perspective, the Lord seems to be raising up normal people, not super geniuses, not academics, but normal people who care about their neighbor, and their family members and their kids and their friends, and they're asking the right questions.
Joshua Chatraw:They're asking how might we invite our friends to reconsider the gospel. Tonight, I wanna clarify and explain this question and questions like it that I that I hear people asking, and then I wanna address that question. So to clarify it, to set it in a kind of context of where we are, let me I'm gonna rephrase the question. The question how I just worded it was, how might we invite our friends to reconsider the gospel? But let me reword this and say it like this.
Joshua Chatraw:How might we persuade our modern pagan neighbors? Now I'm using that language not to be offensive, modern pagan, not to be pejorative at all. And so if you're if you've kind of trickled in tonight, you're not a Christian. I'm not trying to insult you by calling you a modern pagan, at all. That's not my point.
Joshua Chatraw:I'm actually making a deeper point that I would ask you to consider. In the in the middle of 20th century, a literary figure by the name of TS Eliot said, the west will increasingly have to choose between 1 of 2 options, either Christianity or paganism. Now, by paganism, what Elliot means is he means a religious outlook that looks to the material world for ultimate significance. Or to put that differently, by paganism, he means a way of life that seeks the sacred in the physical world. Now more more recently, an author by the name of Tara Burton in a book called Strange Writes, she she has come along and issued the receipts in support of Elliott's thesis.
Joshua Chatraw:This is this is basically what Burden said what what she writes about in strange rights. She says, the religiously unaffiliated I'm sure you've probably heard it. Many of you've heard this term. The nones. Not fastest growing demographic in America, So the nuns are people when they're surveyed say what kind of religious beliefs you have and they say, label, what Burton shows is this group is anything but non religious.
Joshua Chatraw:She says this group, as it turns out, aren't they're not actually shunning religion, as many of them think they they are. Creating their own bespoke religions, mixing and matching spiritual and aesthetic and experiential and philosophical traditions. It's the lunchroom line. Right? Some of this, some of this.
Joshua Chatraw:A kind of pragmatic mush of things together. But they're not anti religious. Here's what's happened. When you have kind of Christianity being pushed to the side saying, either by a kind of, shallow secularism, there is no God, there's those are all just myths, or saying, hey, this isn't this isn't good for us anymore. Actually, Christianity is not good for the world.
Joshua Chatraw:That in some sense, there there leaves a vacuum, a kind of spiritual void, which something is going to fill. And one of the things that we have seen in recent days, and Burton again in her book, shows this, is that people have been happy to step into those voids. The media, politicians, marketers selling their products or vacation packages have been happy to swoop in and into this space left by the dominance of Christianity and offer stories, but they're, in essence, religious stories. They're spiritual stories. They're promises of salvation.
Joshua Chatraw:They're they're forming our visions of the good and the beautiful towards their shows and their products and their services. There was a commercial recently at one of the Super Bowls and, there's these different scenes of life in the commercial. And it was saying, are you really going to get to the end of your life? And say, I'm so so thankful I had all these products. I'm so so thankful that I had the right shoes.
Joshua Chatraw:And it was very much almost like, hang on. What's going on? They're this commercial is critiquing the consumeristic idolatries of our age, and then it gets to the end and says, but what you have What you have is experiences. Right? And it is funny.
Joshua Chatraw:But how's your summer been? Right? As as we're kind of thinking, okay, as we plan and we think, what's of course, family vacations, those can be really good things, but there can be this kind of transcendence that we try to fill, this kind of even this kind of paganism where we try to find the sacred. We try to find transcendence within the imminent, within this world around us. And marketers are happy to pick these lines up.
Joshua Chatraw:And so you have kind of idols competing against each other. Right? Marketers are happy to tap into that void. In fact, people who who research successful companies have made this point. Naomi Klein has explained this in her book on on popular brands.
Joshua Chatraw:Naomi Klein says this. Humans need community and narrative and transcendence. That's quite an anthropology that I agree with. Right? We need community, and we need narrative, and we need something that transcends us.
Joshua Chatraw:And now we're historically have people going for that religion. Right? But in her book, she says, this is the promise of the most successful companies not a Christian author, either. But he wrote an important book called The Triumph of the Therapeutic. And Reef's book, what he says is he already saw signs that were moving from a society that once saw humans as born to be saved to now viewing ourselves as born to be pleased.
Joshua Chatraw:So the question that I'm wanting again, I said I was going to wanting to clarify and explain this question. Right? Because we're saying, how do we actually do this? How do we actually how do we actually map on the gospel to someone's life? How do we invite them to a better story?
Joshua Chatraw:And the question that I'm wanting to kind of to to clarify is and I hope hopefully you're beginning to see this, is the question is how do we persuade people in a you do you therapeutic culture, which imagines that the help that kind of creates people who imagine that they can consume their way to the good life. If we invite these modern day pagans to simply look more closely at traditional rationalistic arguments for Christianity, rationality often doesn't make sense to them. So let me let me give you now let me let me give you a quick example to to kind of fill this in. A few years ago, there was an episode of a popular podcast called Armchair Expert. And the few of you who've had me in class, at least Cole I use this in class.
Joshua Chatraw:Sorry, Cole. But so 2 Dax Shepard you know Dax Shepard is married to one of the princesses from Frozen. Okay. Dax Shepard you can go look that up. It's not on it's Elsa.
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. Elsa. Married to Elsa. Okay. If you're confused, you have to talk to somebody later.
Joshua Chatraw:Okay. So Dax Shepard and Russell Brand. And they're in this conversation, and it's of course, it ranges as podcasts do. They're talking about addictions and anxiety and stress and broken relationships, attraction to chaos, and their ongoing recovery. Brand, who's who's quite the character, invokes prayer, meditation, spirituality, the divine, a reinterpretation of Buddha Buddhism's 4 noble truths, and critiques culture as not working and referring to quote, super powerful and successful people that he knows as utterly broken.
Joshua Chatraw:Shepherd chimes in throughout he's he's known to be a bit more, antagonistic towards religion. He chimes in throughout with testimony about his journey to get better. He reflects on how community and a greater self awareness has been instrumental in his recovery, yet he laments. And this is what he says. What a shame that the only real option other than that, and by that he means his recovery program, is to go to church on Sunday to get that experience.
Joshua Chatraw:And then he adds referring to Communities of Healing. There are no options out there for people. In other words, church isn't really an option, or at least a good one in his mind. He puts this later in the conversation. He says, I did not want a Christian God.
Joshua Chatraw:I didn't want an all knowing God. I didn't want a God that said some people go here and some people go there. I didn't like any of those. So I want I want to point out 3 things. Of course, I'm just giving you a little little brief parts of this conversation, and I want us to listen closely.
Joshua Chatraw:It's really important we listen to what culture is saying, what people who are representative figures within the culture are saying. One of the things I want you to note here is the reasoning. The reasoning is rooted in personal the reason for the objection Well, the reasoning here that Hey, Church isn't an option are personal moral objections. In other words, he says, it's he doesn't say like, hey, this is all irrational. Hey, this is this is just intellectually lacking.
Joshua Chatraw:He He might think that, but that's not what he says. That's not what he says on the podcast. His main beef is, this isn't what I like. This isn't the God I want. Number 2, notice the posture.
Joshua Chatraw:I would describe the posture and you can't in the little quotes I gave, you can't really feel this as much. But from listening to the whole thing, this is what I gathered. It feels less confident. It feels less confident. This isn't the same swagger of the group that called themselves the new atheists that were popular 15 or 10 years ago.
Joshua Chatraw:The the Richard Dawkins and the Christopher Hitchens who were writing books like religion poisons everything, God's not good. These types of kind of, these types of kind of hardcore atheists who were making fun of religion, that's that's not what we get here. There's a there's not as much confidence here as people speak about religion. Now, again, this is I'm making one I'm making one point, and then I'm making general observations. There's, of course, exceptions.
Joshua Chatraw:Thing is notice the draw maybe you heard it. The goal is to feel better. That was where they started and then they came into religion and they came into Christianity. Accepted that something is wrong with the world and with themselves. Their response is to seek recovery, to figure out how to feel right, to live healthy lives, to find peace.
Joshua Chatraw:This is what Charles Taylor would call the Canadian philosopher, kind of our secular age's lack of fullness. There's this lacking that they feel. People are looking for ways to cope, to feel better. In fact, that often becomes the kind of functional meaning of everyday existence for them. If you if you look at the positive, the positive psychology movement, which I think there's there's lots of positive things I could draw from that, so it's not an all out critique.
Joshua Chatraw:But often it's, okay, how do we help people feel better and cope? Okay. And again, I'm not altogether critiquing that by any means. If people say, I wanna be happy, I don't say, no, don't be happy. You know, 'Let's try not to be happy.' I don't think that's actually very helpful advice.
Joshua Chatraw:Okay? But much of the kind of culture that we're in right now is this the kind of just functional, practical, how do I cope today? How do I get through tomorrow? I hope you can see the problem, though. If you simply take a kind of traditional apologetic script, evidences that demand a verdict, all those there's many things there in that kind of approach that can be helpful.
Joshua Chatraw:And yet, oftentimes, when you meet the Dax Shepherds of the world or Russell Brand in the world, that falls flat. And so what do we do? Do we give up on persuasion? Give up on evangelism? Do we just keep on doing what we've always done?
Joshua Chatraw:For many of us, including myself, we learned certain ways of doing evangelism, that we need to think more about. And this is the second part of your sheet here, characteristics of traditional evangelistic approaches. Not all of these are bad. It just means that, what I'm about to give you is not all bad, but it but what I am pointing out, at least in some of them, is that they were crafted they were made for different contexts. And I think you'll see that right off the bat.
Joshua Chatraw:Number 1, they assume more. Christianity, is given a benefit of the doubt. And so if Christianity is given about a benefit of the doubt, then often you can simply start all at the end. Have you asked Jesus into your heart? Have you repented?
Joshua Chatraw:You don't have to grapple with maybe, challenging areas, questions that people have. An understanding of biblical ideas could largely be assumed. Categories and concepts like sin and salvation and God and repentance and guilt. And often in these different approaches be taken for granted. Christians didn't need didn't feel the need for the most part to defend these ideas.
Joshua Chatraw:The second second part is often the way many of us were trained is we were given us that script. It's it's and and I and I'm very as an evangelism professor, I'm very sympathetic with this. People need something. Right? Like, give me they're they're eager.
Joshua Chatraw:They wanna go share about Jesus. Give me something. Here's a track. Here's the Romans Road. I can memorize that.
Joshua Chatraw:I can go do it. And in some there's probably people in this room who've come to Christ because of those things and amen. So again, this is partly my critique here is partly simply our context has changed. Okay? Not that this can never work or has never worked.
Joshua Chatraw:But in an age of authenticity, for many, this feels, well, inauthentic. Almost like the tools of a bad door to door salesperson. And then also, because Christianity isn't given the benefit of the doubt, it once was, most conversations, as many of you know, go off the preplanned scripts pretty quickly. And then what do you do? The 3rd third thing here is at times, and this wasn't always the case, but at times certain, particularly some kind of practical apologetic books that some of you maybe have even read, can can really set out as the goal ends up being to kind of control this conversation.
Joshua Chatraw:So you get into conversation, and sometimes this language even comes out in some of this literature, is how do you stay in control? And as effective as that might be in maybe a formal debate of some sort, I think there's some some challenges to everyday conversation. I learned this early on in my marriage, that my wife can pick up when I'm trying to control the conversation, and she didn't like it. How dare she. Right?
Joshua Chatraw:And most people actually can tell when you're just simply trying to control the conversation. You're trying to score cheap points. And so you use maneuvers and learn a certain way to navigate that ends up, well, feeling like you're trying to back someone into the corner. I recently was was out of town giving a talk about about method, about how to do this. And I had a not this talk because I didn't go through this, but I had I had a student come up to me afterwards, I think late high school or college student, and tell me he said, hey, I've I'm really into apologetics, and I go and I try to have conversations with people and they always just shut me down.
Joshua Chatraw:And so what do I do? And I'm just like, well, I started asking him questions and I started explaining kind of, okay, here's here's an approach to actually engage people. And by the end my wife was my wife was in with was with me during this conversation. And by the end, he looked at me and said, so what you're saying is that I need to learn to talk to them, ask good questions, and listen more. And I kind of said, yes.
Joshua Chatraw:And then we got to the car and my wife says, I can't believe that people actually pay you to come to places to tell people this. That was her critique of what I do for a living. So, and so but what what happens oftentimes at times is we get so amped up for these things. Right? We get so amped up or especially if you have a certain kind of personality, that you forget there's this human in front of you.
Joshua Chatraw:And the way to begin evangelism, the way to begin actually caring for this person is to slow down and take an interest in this person as an image bearer. Not well, I'll get to this more because I'm I'm getting more into teaching now. Let's get to my last two points here. For a debate, sometimes, particularly traditional apologetic approaches very much get to a debate. And I'm all about, I'm I'm all about rationality, and I'm about logic, and I'm about the exchange of ideas, and not all of these things can be right, and we need to wrestle with those.
Joshua Chatraw:Absolutely. Don't don't hear me putting any of those things down. But generally, I found that there's 2 kinds of people who kind of respond to apologetics. They people perceive apologetics to be all about winning a debate, and then there's some some there's one kind of person who says, oh, I'm all for that, and they're actually sometimes actually really good at winning a debate, but they're very poor at persuading. They're very poor at persuading.
Joshua Chatraw:Relationship knows that you can win a debate and not persuade the other person. Those are 2 different things. Of course, you always gotta figure out who's scoring these debates and other things we won't get into. But this this this kind of feeling to to that they won't they're attracted to apologetics to kind of win, and often they lose the person they're trying to win because of their eagerness to kind of it it ends up being a monologue and kind of a dump truck of data onto them rather than just disengage engagement or walking alongside them. Think through apologetics because they hate confrontation and divisiveness.
Joshua Chatraw:And I want to suggest to you in in what we're going to look at in just a second that that doesn't that doesn't need to be how you perceive apologetics or evangelism. The final thing I just wanna mention is that oftentimes, we can just feel guilty. And I I don't think there's, in some sense, maybe there's no way around this, but but sometimes, those who are teaching it can just make us feel guilty. And I'm not immune to this. I might be making you feel guilty tonight.
Joshua Chatraw:But in their excitement for evangelism, they can make you feel guilty for not being as excited. And too often, we are we feel the weight of the world on our shoulders as if it's all up to us. And I just want to just in a second and I'll explain why free you from that. Okay? You are not the messiah and neither am I.
Joshua Chatraw:You're not God. Yes, we are Christ Ambassadors. And yet, our job is simply to be faithful, to be attentive to what the spirit's doing. So let me give you now kind of last section here. It's 6 characteristics of Faithful Apologetics and Evangelism.
Joshua Chatraw:So number 1, evangelism as keeping in step with the spirit, Attending to God, slowing down, and attending to God and his work all around us. I think one of the real challenges to kind of spirit to spirit filled evangelism is just our busyness, our busy schedules, our minds being all over the place. One of our issues is we have an attention problem. We're not attending to the Lord. We're not attending to what the Lord is doing around us.
Joshua Chatraw:So we are ambassadors for Christ, and it's through his Spirit that we do the work of evangelism, but his Spirit is working in the world, in the lives of our neighbors and our family members and our friends. And so we don't need to fill the kind of the burden to kind of conjure up faith, but simply to be attentive to the person around it. I tell my students, not every most conversations, you're not going to have 30 minutes to explain the full biblical story. But to just open the door, to ask questions, and I'll get to these in a minute, to attend to this person, to attend to your son's friend friend's parents at soccer practice or at the baseball field to ask questions, to get to know them, to put the book down, to put the phone down, and just to attend to the people around them around you and ask questions. See what the lord's doing in their life.
Joshua Chatraw:I'll get to some of those in a second, some of those questions and how to how to think about that. So keeping in step with the spirit and being attentive to the people around you, to the image bearers around you. Number 2, friend of mine likes to say, humans are not brains on a stick. We are thinking beings, but we are more fundamentally driven by what we love. If they are religious or not, or worshiping and they're loving something, we don't opt out of that.
Joshua Chatraw:We don't say, ah, Christianity is not for me. I'm not going to worship anymore. No. Christianity is not for me. I'm not going to No.
Joshua Chatraw:We we are these types of creatures where we if we don't worship God, we'll worship something else. Where they're worshiping or what they're committed to, what they value most. We do often times it will mean not necessarily saying what I just said. You're worshiping No. Yeah.
Joshua Chatraw:Yes, you are. Let me try to convince you you are. But simply say, what do you value? Where do you find meaning? What's most important to you?
Joshua Chatraw:Asking questions or what do you what do you want for the future? What are you hoping in? What are you trusting in? Where is true joy to be found? Where do they run for love, for security?
Joshua Chatraw:I think these are our openings in a therapeutic age. These are openings where people are running to the things of this world, and yet those things aren't quite working. The thing about vacation is you get to the end of it, and then you say, now what? The thing about any product you're you're defying or any relationship you're defying, it's not going to bear the weight of divinity. And so you have these feelings of insecurity and fragility.
Joshua Chatraw:And your friends and your neighbors, your co And your friends and your neighbors, your coworkers have those. And you know what? We have those too. And in fact, evangelism can be about saying, you know what? We actually share these insecurities because I tap meaning out of my fake vacation, and yet I come back disappointed.
Joshua Chatraw:I know what that's like. And so I come back to actually something that does promise healing and has given me healing. And so then all of a sudden it's not me telling them how they're sinners, but saying, actually, I can identify with this kind of experience that you're experiencing, and let me tell you a story from that point. In fact and some of you might know this. I mentioned that podcast took place a few years ago with Russell Brand and Dax Shepard.
Joshua Chatraw:Russell Brand has recently actually become a Christian. And if you hear him talk and I've been I've been keen to listen to some of this because I was writing about this. I was paying attention to to Russell Brand and kind of his journey. And so when he a few months ago, when he became a Christian, these are the very themes that he talks about forgiveness and meaning and value and hope and joy. Those are the things that took him over the age.
Joshua Chatraw:Number 3, when we think about faithful apologetics and evangelism, we need to be rational about human rationality. We need to be rational about human rationality. Field when they think about perceptions of rationality, they they can just to sum this up, they give often, like, 3 points about, okay, how how does somebody perceive something as rational? And the first one is basic logic. Basic logic.
Joshua Chatraw:So that's 2 +2 equals 4, basic math, or you don't have a married bachelor, basic logic. Right? So if you say that's not rational, it's because you're saying there is a married bachelor. You can't have that that doesn't make any sense. So basic logic, evidence available.
Joshua Chatraw:I don't wanna spend too long on this because of time, but I'm just gonna mention. Is it is it Oh, I see different ages. Okay. I can't ask that question. Oh, gosh.
Joshua Chatraw:This is easier in a college classroom. Because when you're young, right, we're alright with this. I'm just looking around. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go for this and parents, I'm sorry if I shouldn't have, but is it when you're young, is it rational to believe in the Easter bunny? When you're 4 Somebody's saying, sure.
Joshua Chatraw:No. 4 It's not when you're 4. Yeah. So Well, I would just say, what's rational for a 4 year old is, hey, my parents have always told me true things, and now they're telling me I'm I'm not making an indictment on this. I know I don't know if it's controversial.
Joshua Chatraw:Now they're telling me, but I get to leave later. So, Matt will solve this for you. But their thinking on this is rational. Like, dad's always told me what's true. I can trust my dad, and he just told me that the tooth fairy or Easter bunny is real.
Joshua Chatraw:So it's rational. Right? And and then they get a little older. I'm sorry if I've ruined this for you. But they get a little older, and and it's like they start asking I'm teasing.
Joshua Chatraw:I'm sorry. So, they start asking questions, and it's like, hang on. Maybe this isn't rational. Right? And so it's a question of the evidence available to them.
Joshua Chatraw:Right? And you can look at historically, you can maybe look at beliefs of certain people and say, oh, they were so rational back then. And that would but you have to consider, you know, back in, you know, 2000 years ago, like, what evidence was available for them? And we we need to be careful we're not doing what C. S.
Joshua Chatraw:Lewis called chronological snobbery, where we look back and think, oh, those people were stupid. No, it's just sometimes there's different evidence available at different times, and people will look back on us and say, look at those people, they were stupid. You know, they can't believe they believe that in in a 1000 years if things are still going. So number basic logic, evidence available. Now you know why I was debating.
Joshua Chatraw:But once I said, I can't say this because there's kids here, some of you went to something else tonight. I wanted to make sure that you knew it was clean. Okay. So basic logic, evidence available. And number 3 is I didn't mean for this to be this funny.
Joshua Chatraw:Social imaginary. Now, Matt shared for me shared with me his talk from a few weeks ago. And so you've probably gotten a little dose of Charles Taylor already. This is a Charles Taylor term. He's a philosopher I mentioned earlier.
Joshua Chatraw:And what Taylor, what he's saying here is that we inherit certain assumptions in the in the world that's just like the air we breathe. And so one way to get at this is if you were living 500 years ago and, well, Martin Luther, for instance, the reformer, you know, he was gonna be a lawyer. He almost got struck by lightning and it was like really clear that was God telling him don't be a lawyer. Now if you get almost struck by lightning, you think, I shouldn't be out in this kind of weather, you're probably not gonna switch career paths. Right?
Joshua Chatraw:Or when he thought about the devil, he thought, that devil is, like, right there. If I mean, if I can appear quick enough, I will catch him and I will see him. Right? He lived in an enchanted world. Most of us don't think like that.
Joshua Chatraw:And what I'm suggesting is it's not that we have kind of thought our way to not thinking like that. It's just the inheritance. It's it's inheritance of being, you know, post enlightenment Westerners. It's a culture social imaginary. Now why am I explaining this?
Joshua Chatraw:Because the big point here I'm wanting to get to and I'm sorry it was a lot of work to get to here But the way our social imaginary so often we process these within this larger social imaginary. So if you just if you wanna do a test case on this, think about the reactions to the pandemic and all that was going on. There was a larger kind of narrative that people subscribed to, and then they would look at the logic and evidence available through that kind of imagination of what's going on. The government's corrupt, or those people are doing this, whatever. And so if you blow that up about is there a God, is Christianity true, it's it's often these kind of assumptions that we make going in.
Joshua Chatraw:We haven't thought our way to them, but we've adhered to them that play such a large overwhelming role. And the way these are transmitted are through macro narratives. Now, those are more cognitive and philosophical. All that we have around so let me give you an example. All that we have in the world, one would say, is material.
Joshua Chatraw:We're hereby an accident. Therefore, you know, life stinks. Just suck it up. It's gonna stink. It's gonna be hard.
Joshua Chatraw:Or the great news about that Here's another narrative off of that is that you're free to make your own meaning. Isn't that great news? You're free to live however you want. Cast off anyone trying to tell you that there is kind of some kind of transcendent moral code or meaning. It's up to you.
Joshua Chatraw:So some people view that kind of materialistic story in a positive way. Some people view it in a negative way. But there's also and and the one I'm more interested in tonight, those are to be macro narratives. But I'm more interested in what I would call micro scripts. They're less cognitive.
Joshua Chatraw:They're largely assumed. And what would be some macro skip grips? I call them scripts as well as narrative because if you say, hey, what story are you living by? It's not that somebody has necessarily processed that, but it just becomes the script that their life runs on. So one of the huge ones in the West is achievement.
Joshua Chatraw:Achievement. We have to make our own identity. Most beloved movies. And probably some you guys, oh, my mind just blanked. I said my beloved Rudy.
Joshua Chatraw:Rudy. You guys seen Rudy? I love Rudy. The the one of the parts we love about Rudy, if you've seen it If you haven't seen it, you should. It's this kid with no basic no real, like, athletic ability, and he ends up his his lifelong dream is to play football for Notre Dame.
Joshua Chatraw:And he ends up working hard enough, staying with it, and then he makes the team, and the movie ends by he gets in, like, 2 plays. And kind of one of the reasons we love that story is because we love underdogs and because it says, hey, if you put your mind to it, you can do it. Isn't isn't every president pretty much in the last 50 years, either side of the aisle, this is a story. What makes America great is what makes America great is if you put your mind to it, you can be what you want to be. You can achieve.
Joshua Chatraw:Now where that can go wrong is when we achieve, we say Well, when somebody doesn't achieve, they begin to think, Well, it must just be because I didn't work hard enough. Or But we know better. Right? We know sometimes you work really hard and you don't get the corner office. You don't get the job you wanted.
Joshua Chatraw:Or the people who have achieved can simply will simply look down and say, well, if you would have only worked harder, you would have arrived where I did. This is kind of one once a request, the gospel story is rooted in grace and it says, what do I have that I have not received? And so we can we can marvel at God's gifts to us while not looking down on someone who hasn't achieved those things. And if God hasn't given us something that we won't, we can be content with what we have and celebrate that in someone else. But there's these other micro scripts received.
Joshua Chatraw:The the the the script of romance, that your life will be happily ever after if you just meet the perfect person. We inherit that script through lots of Disney movies and princess movies from an early age. These are the kind of micro scripts that we inherit, that form our identity, and we live by. And I would just say that if we're not careful, even as Christians who who claim the gospel story, they can end up script scripting your life too. So we need to be rational about human rationality.
Joshua Chatraw:My point there is that often people are actually living out scripts that they're not even fully aware of. And part of our job in evangelism is to come alongside them, not in an accusatory way, but to help them see this, to help them see where their scripts were going. It's something that because we're all in some ways being catechized by these narratives and scripts that we can show sympathy to while at the same time critiquing because we know they ultimately aren't satisfying. And we can share that from our own lives if we're attentive to our own hearts and our own stories and the and the temptation of these scripts in our own lives. Number 4, and I'll speed up here, it's viewing the world by the way of the gospel story.
Joshua Chatraw:So I want you to see here what I'm suggesting tonight is not a formula. It's not simply something that I I don't have a track to give you on the way out. It's not something simply to memorize. What I'm suggesting is an entire way to live and so that evangelism just becomes second nature because we're all always coming back to the gospel story in our own life. We're coming back to, As I'm guessing you guys know in your curriculum at a church like this, creation, fall, redemption, and recreation.
Joshua Chatraw:Coming back to creation. Well, what does that do? Well, let's think about how creative changes that God created the world good. That this world around us is actually a good thing. And it is a gift.
Joshua Chatraw:And so the fundamental posture for Christians is should be one of thankfulness. And you see that throughout the pages of the New Testament. This deep gratitude and living a life full of thankfulness and gratitude. A dependence upon God. Another way to say this is the fear of the Lord or humility before God.
Joshua Chatraw:That we are dependent. That changes in so many ways this kind of story of achievement where I can just do it. No. It's actually recognizing that, as as a recent book has said, we are only human. And what does it mean to be human?
Joshua Chatraw:The story of creation has so much to say to speak to our own lives, to change the patterns of our lives, and then to change how we speak to other people about the difference the story makes. The fall we fill this. You don't have to be a Christian to fill this. It's often the place I start. Something is raw.
Joshua Chatraw:As as Tim Keller used to say, he's like, just just pull out the keys in your pocket. Why do we have these keys? Because we have to lock our doors. Something's not right. Something has gone wrong.
Joshua Chatraw:We feel a guilt still, even though we even for at times we shun religion or a kind of transcendent morality, we still feel guilty. We sense that the world isn't as it should be, and the Christian story explains that, speaks to that. And the Christian story says there is actually redemption. It's the grace we're looking for. It's the forgiveness people are looking for.
Joshua Chatraw:It's the healing that people are looking for, the peace, the meaning, the joy, the forgiveness. 's he's said You guys have everything that people are looking for. You need to learn how to talk about those things. These are the very things in our cultural moment that people feel lacking in, and the Christian story speaks to it. Redemption speaks to it.
Joshua Chatraw:And finally, recreation. There really is a kind of hope. There really is a justice to come. That doesn't mean we can explain why everything that's wrong is wrong. But what we do have is this promise in the resurrection that that Christ will return and things will be made right.
Joshua Chatraw:What I'm trying to say is these the storyline and these doctrines that probably most of you know so well speak into the very kind of needs that people have, and yet they're going to other places to try to find the healing and hope they're looking for. Number 5, sympathetic and critically engage the stories of our culture. I've been gesturing here this evening. People want peace. They won't rest.
Joshua Chatraw:They long to love and be loved. But they're often trapped in these, this social, in these micro scripts, or as in Paul's language, the patterns of this fallen world. They're worshiping the wrong things or as Pascal put it, they have a god shaped hole in their heart. They were made for god and yet they're they're worshiping the wrong things. And so, yes, there is critique.
Joshua Chatraw:There has to be critique. We don't believe an atheist is right. And so we need to we need to have those conversations. But most of the people that I talk to, and I would bet most of the people that you talk to, and certainly the data shows this, is they're in that kind of none category. Right?
Joshua Chatraw:These aren't like, you know, PhDs in philosophy who've sorted out all their issues. They're just looking to cope. Okay? And so to begin looking at folks around you in that way rather than assuming they're going to kind of, go off on you, but to see them as people, well, as sheep who need a shepherd and you know the Good Shepherd. And this is my last point before we go into Q and A, and it's cultivating a non anxious presence.
Joshua Chatraw:Evangelism. To be faithful in this task, we need to cultivate a non anxious presence in the world. You're not a Christian because you know all the answers. Neither am I. You're not expected to give all the answers.
Joshua Chatraw:It's not what you're on the hook for. A non anxious presence is someone who is so so been formed by the gospel, has have sewn absorbed that gospel story. That's that's absorbed that gospel story that they can approach life, and they can approach suffering, and they can approach death with with a kind of non anxiousness. The the only time in the New Testament we actually get the Greek word for apologetics is in 1st Peter 315. The context of first 3 or 50 at first Peter is that the people of God are suffering.
Joshua Chatraw:And what first what Peter writes to them and says is he says, suffer well with hope and then be ready to give a reason, to give a defense, to give an apologetic for the hope that's within you. So the assumption is these people are living lives of hope. And I would suggest this is this is the most powerful apologetic or evangelistic we have. It's to live out the gospel. It's to be people of the gospel.
Joshua Chatraw:And so that when tough times come, we have when things are good, we're people of humble joy and gratitude to the tough political seasons, in tough times, in our own churches, in our tough times, in our own country, people will say, why? Why do you have this hope? And we bear witness.
Ford Galin:Yeah. Go ahead and start. One of the big questions was asking for just advice on how to transition surface conversations into deeper conversations in a less awkward way than so often we find. Yeah. If you could speak to that.
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. Well, I think I think some of that depends on relationship with the person and, your personality, and I think there's hundreds of ways to do that. But, I mean, one of the ways that I do that is I'm meeting people. I just I, you know, I I find that I rarely have anyone, my parents, my my kids' parents that I when I first meet at practices and other things say, hey, tell me your story. Like, tell me about yourself.
Joshua Chatraw:Like, it doesn't like, this is basic stuff, but it seems like these days we're pretty kinda just going in a 100 different ways. So I I do that, and then I start asking questions. Just not not too probing, but you know, if if I know I have a season ahead of me, for instance, at soccer practice with my kids, I got a season ahead of me, you know. So I don't have to say everything the the first time I meet somebody, but I'm asking questions and I'm getting to know and I'm trying I'm trying to be a friend, and I'm also if I'm trying to be a friend, I'm also looking for opportunities to talk about my relationship with the Lord. So that so I start off with just like, hey, tell me your story.
Joshua Chatraw:Tell me and then I start kind of asking from there, as as the relationship builds. So, yep, that's that's kind of my general approach and then see where it goes.
Ford Galin:Yeah. Thanks. I'm sorry if I'm beefing up a little over the place, but No.
Joshua Chatraw:It's fine.
Ford Galin:I think probably have a lot on, some of the practical. And now know that there's, like you said, not a tractor playbook. So I know in a lot of these, don't feel pressure to give us, you know, here's the 4 steps or anything. But what about in terms of, telling a better story to those who are maybe kinda in the post Christian and have left the church, especially if perhaps there's bad experiences there. Yeah.
Ford Galin:What does it look like to kinda move forward in evangelism to those who have hurts and wounds from Christian backgrounds?
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. So I think, just very generally I would say, three things. 1 is, I would wanna ask talk to them about their experience, and I'd be I'd be very careful not to be too defensive. Okay? And so all like, first thing you can do is be a non anxious presence, tell me more, and sometimes you just feel like, yeah, that sucks.
Joshua Chatraw:I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry that that happened to you and I'm and I totally can see that. I can see how people treated you treating you like that or you've got a problem with, you know, evil in the world. Me too.
Joshua Chatraw:You know, I haven't fully solved that. You know, that's fine. And oftentimes coming alongside of them and actually saying, yeah. I agree. Of course, you you at times, you're gonna have to they're gonna say things that, you disagree with, and you wanna look for opportunities to work back around if those things are needed.
Joshua Chatraw:Sometimes you can just say, hey, that's not so central. So I think the first thing is often it's to be a sympathetic ear and not to be defensive yourself. I'm not ask I'm not suggesting you give ground, but I'm saying that there's it's understandable, for a variety of reasons why people feel deeply hurt and also have questions that maybe that no one's ever taken seriously. So that's number 2. That's number 1.
Joshua Chatraw:Number 2, and this is kind of next level, but if you are deconstructing out of Christianity, you're not stepping into nowhere. Right? And so you have to have a way of life and you will have a way of life even if you just say, well, I'm just kind of going with the flow. Well, going with the flow is adopting a certain cultural script that has beliefs wrapped up into that. And so one of the things is I want them to see that.
Joshua Chatraw:I want I wanna help people see that you're you're jumping out of Christianity and you're jumping into something else. And you should be critical, especially with maybe certain forms of Christianity, maybe the way you grew up within a certain kind of Christian bubble. You can be critical of that. I think we we should be, but you should be just as critical with what you're about to step into. And oftentimes there's a kind of naivety about what they're about to step into, or thinking they can be in a kind of nothingness.
Joshua Chatraw:And so that gives an opportunity to say, what are you stepping into? And they're a lot of times it's kinda like, what? And they'll maybe want to wrestle with you a little bit and say, well, no. I'm just just gonna live my life free. And I want them to see that, no, there's actually the kind of parochial cultural norms that are just that parochial, and they just haven't been thought through.
Joshua Chatraw:And so we need to we need to expose those just as much. And then the third step is I I would want them to say, hey, would you try on a kind of Christianity that's outside of maybe if it was a very narrow approach to Christianity, I would want to have them read and think kind of historically and and more widely than maybe they have. And that just kinda comes in conversation. So I've outlined I've written a book on this. Sorry.
Joshua Chatraw:I'm not trying to sell that, but, where I kind of take make those moves. It's called Surprise by Doubt. So, but so the but I think what we can all do is that first step, be a sympathetic ear, listen, non anxious presence. And and and you can always say, you know, I don't have a great answer for some of the things, but I'm I wanna think through them. And I do have other people I wanna talk to and think through that more because you're raising some things that I haven't really even given as much thought about.
Joshua Chatraw:And I think that's okay to say. Yeah. So, again, you're not a Christian because you've answered every question or you've figured everything out. And, and so it's okay to say I don't know, but I'll I'll think more about that and and engage with pastors and other people who've maybe thought more on those issues. Thanks.
Ford Galin:What about on the evangelism in a culturally Christian context? What does it look like to share the gospel with neighbors, friends, people in our life, who would take the name of Christian but or take the name of Christ, but there's not necessarily evidence of genuine faith there, or who may think that they're saved. Yet there'd be reason to why you maybe not be positive or have questions or at least love to see them go deeper in ways they're not necessarily actively seeking.
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. I mean, I think certainly if they're open to I'm a I'm a Christian. I believe in the bible. Then that gives you, you know, an opportunity to say, hey, let's would you would you would you meet with me sometime and think more about the Bible and talk more? And so, you don't you don't have to maybe you know, you don't have to make that decision of this person's not a Christian or this person is a Christian.
Joshua Chatraw:What we all need is the gospel. We can come back to the gospel, and you don't have to feel the weight of deciphering that. But if there's an opportunity to disciple and there's an opportunity to to speak into their life and show them the commands of Christ, and there's there's really good books in the bible that speak directly to these types of issues, first John, for instance. And so to to to sit down with them, and if there's a shared authority with the Bible, that's a great opportunity to sit down with them and just say, hey. Let's, let's go through the Bible, the book of James, and faith and works, and some of these discussions can be helpful at that point.
Joshua Chatraw:So it that doesn't that doesn't solve it because sometimes I just wanna I I know the objections is they're saying they're a Christian, but they don't wanna have any kind of conversation with me. But, you know, they don't wanna study the Bible with me. And I would just say, care for them. You can't make someone study the Bible with you. You can you can offer it, but if they say no, then you can be friendly and look for opportunities.
Joshua Chatraw:What what often happens with non believers, with people in this case, is if they know you're a Christian and you care for them, the Lord often uses suffering in crisis and you're a faithful friend who cares about them. Again, it's being attentive to what the Spirit's doing and saying, look. Look. I don't I can't force this person. But if they know you care for them, and and you're around they know you're a Christian, they know you're walking with the Lord, it often comes back to you and there's these other opportunities.
Joshua Chatraw:So don't just kind of give up is what I would suggest. There's so many ways. Just listen to text, stay in touch with folks, and, and be alert and be attentive to what the Lord is doing in their lives.
Ford Galin:Yeah. Thanks. And kind of maybe one more specific area of evangelism. You spoke to those who or spoke about what it mean looks like to engage with those who are motivated by desires and not necessarily, seeking truth as much as just living an experience and it's based off Russell Brand, why don't want this type of God? What about the opposite?
Ford Galin:What does it look like ministering to someone who is actually really positively predisposed to the faith, but just doesn't believe this sexual violence for several months before I became a Christian in college of desire and just didn't have a heart to believe. What does it look like to minister in those spaces?
Joshua Chatraw:Just so I understand, somebody who's thinking more on a, like, evidential level or kind of rationalistic level? Is that what you're saying?
Ford Galin:Yeah. Whether evidential or whether it's just this sounds great and I want it to be true, I just don't think it is. Maybe it's irrational or maybe it's at just kind of a heart faith level. What does it look like in the ministry?
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. I mean I think on one on one level sometimes when we're talking to people they will think, hey, there's religion over here, and then there's like this real world of faith and science, I mean of science and data and evidence over here. And that's by faith. And I'm just not somebody who can just have faith. I'm someone who's over here who thinks scientifically.
Joshua Chatraw:And I would just say that that is a false dichotomy. Okay? And so one of the things I wanna help people see is that, is that number 1, science as we know it today isn't monolithic, and scientific theories are based on assumptions and can't be proven like larger theories aren't proven in the way that people often think about. Philosophers of science point this out. But I think sometimes that's actually a hard way to go with somebody unless you're pretty knowledgeable.
Joshua Chatraw:And I would just say that one way I would go about it is I would say, listen, Christianity doesn't ask you to believe anything that's not true. And I would want to have a lot of conversations about the resurrection because I think if we can say go to go to 1 kind of thing versus saying like, Can we figure out how old the earth is? Or some of these other conversations, that is not triaging very well in a conversation. So I want to go to what do you think about Jesus, the historicity of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, but also I want to say, no one is coming to those questions completely neutral. No one's coming to that without the bigger questions of, 'Hey, if Jesus actually rose from the dead, what are the implications of that?' You can't kind of subtract yourself out of that.
Joshua Chatraw:And so I don't want to give people the impression that they're kind of these neutral logic choppers when I don't actually I think there's always more going on to that. So although I'm happy to go there, I'm also kind of I recognize that I'm still wanting to make these deeper appeals to the heart. Even if they think that they're just pure logic processors, they're not. There's more going on. And and so I'm both wanting to kind of appeal to this, but not see the game so that Christianity they say, well, I need Christianity to work like a math equation.
Joshua Chatraw:And I'm like, oh, well, it can. Well, once you do that, you twist Christianity into something it's not. Okay? That's not how Christianity works. In fact, that's not how life works.
Joshua Chatraw:We don't have a kind of certitude, a 100% certitude about the big questions of life. That's just not how it works. And so if you're only going to believe things or only gonna live out things that you have a 100% certitude about, actually, I I think that's fairly impossible to do. How how can you be certain someone loves you? How can you be certain All the things that we actually bank our lives on and to give it joy and meaning and significance, it actually has to be kind of what I would call, kind of a kind of reasoned faith.
Joshua Chatraw:I have some good reasons to believe my wife loves me, but I can't a 100% prove that. And I and I think that's that that's kind of how it works with Christianity. I have some really good reasons to believe Christianity is true, including some profoundly existential reasons, but I can't prove that like a math equation. But that's okay. It seems to me everyone's in the same boat there.
Joshua Chatraw:So some of that is tapping down the expectations, because what sometimes happens is they want you to a 100% prove it. When you can't, then they say, see, therefore Christianity doesn't work. But that's just not how how Christianity works. So
Ford Galin:Yeah. Great. Thank you. Time for probably 2 or 3 more here. What about obviously in our cultural moment, one of the specific sticking points is when ideas around the Christian sexual ethic come up.
Ford Galin:Yeah. And so what does it look like, as we kinda move forward and tell a better story, around those we know who, maybe walking in or just passing them out or have frustrations when it comes to gender identity in the Christian faith or LGBTQ plus topics in the Christian faith?
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that I would want to argue is that that there's an actual fabric to the universe and that God has created that fabric, and he's actually said this is a way to live a life that's flourishing. And so the Bible is actually speaking to this way as how to flourish as human beings, and that includes our sexual ethic.
Joshua Chatraw:Now for somebody who's struggling with that, we also wanna say there's the fall. Right? So we have these different things going on and challenges to that. We have sinful natures. So actually, what is flourishing can can often not feel flourishing, especially immediately.
Joshua Chatraw:And yet it's this trust in the God who sent Christ and and that and that that that that that, revealed himself in Christ and revealed himself in his word that actually speaks to the path of flourishing. And so the reason I put it like that is it's often put it put in a way where it's like, here are the things you can't do, and here and here are the things you can do. And and then it says, well, that's oppressive. The culture says, 'That's oppressive. That doesn't kind of respect me and my feelings.' And for Christians, we say, well, we can't always trust our immediate instincts and feelings, and that's why God has revealed himself and given us this way to flourishing.
Joshua Chatraw:And so we we have these kind of different, really, kind of models of what is flourishing and what is ultimately flourishing. And I and I think that's kind of the level that I wanna have the conversation rather than here's the things you can't do, and that's just okay and something's wrong with you. Because we need creation as good and there's a created order, but we also need that there's fallenness in the world. And so that gives us sympathy when people are feeling different things and are what what I would say have certain have wrong views of sexuality and and deeply fill those things. So I can be sympathetic while still saying that's that's not God's path to flourishing.
Joshua Chatraw:And I would just say that all of us, whether heterosexual, homosexual, all of us have these different ways where our sexual identity is actually broken and fallen and we feel the pains. So it's not just saying those over there, but it's all of us who are who in various ways feel this and need redemption and healing in that area.
Ford Galin:Yeah. Great. If I could maybe kind of shift a little bit the tone for these last two questions. Knowing how helpful, these things are, but how when you get in the moment how messy,
Joshua Chatraw:some
Ford Galin:of these conversations get. And imagine there's many of us here who are sitting here excited and eager to try to engage with those around us. But as you said, anxious, or overwhelmed or fearful when it comes to evangelism. You're Billy Graham chair for evangelism at Beeson. You've written on this, you've spoken on this.
Ford Galin:Can I ask though a time, personal example if you have one, of evangelism going really poorly or failures on your part?
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. I mean, I think Where I've set back and reflected later is when I've often, I got out And we can't help but kind of think about these after the conversation, where I've often say too much.
Joshua Chatraw:And I won't, I tell myself I want to make the other person understand, but it's often out of a sense of anxiety or a sense of wanting to kind of not make it as awkward for me, even though I'm it's often about that, rather than just asking questions and being a really good listener. And so that that's just kind of my tendency. Some of you might go the other way, but I can start kind of talking theology or over explaining rather than asking some good questions, listening, and kind of leading the person rather than kind of where it's going bad is I've walked out of those conversations and thought, man, that was that was so much me kind of monologuing my my writings onto them, and I'm not sure if that was particularly helpful. That's more recently, kind of back in the day. So many bad times.
Joshua Chatraw:I, Yeah. I was a part of, I was a part of Christian ministry in college and we'd go out on the beach, and just random people. And, that typically I thought to my If you would have told me after those experiences, like, Hey, you're going to teach evangelism? I would have said, no, I won't, because this is not for me. You know, people are like, what are you doing?
Joshua Chatraw:I'm trying to have vacation on the beach, and you're talking to you're just a random guy, kid, you know, 20 years old. And I was pretty much ready to, you know, hang it up, after those experiences. So, yeah, some of those went really bad.
Ford Galin:Great. And he said he had a lot more specific examples if you want to ask after.
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah. I didn't get too specific.
Ford Galin:I won't keep pressing until you get in case I take another one of your classes and you have power over my grades.
Joshua Chatraw:I wanted to encourage not discourage to know.
Ford Galin:Well then on that note, could I ask you to maybe just leave with one last word of encouragement for, both seasoned evangelists or those who are really nervous about doing it for the first time, what encouragement would you give?
Joshua Chatraw:I would say to cultivate a holy curiosity about the people who are around you. You know, these are wonderful, and yet also as we all are wonderful and yet broken and wretched people, and we're all that, but we're also these wonderful creatures that God has made and he cares about. And, I'm often so distracted by my own kind of petty worries and just the parts of the days where I don't reflect on this the enchanted world realm and this person that I have a few minutes to speak to. And so to try to cultivate a kind of holy curiosity about the other person in front of you, which is which is much more I mean, it's just much more meaningful and actually, I would say, life giving than, you know, that, you know, watching that final play in the football game or in the Olympics tomorrow is actually this holy curiosity to the image bearers that are already in your life. And all of a sudden evangelism isn't going to the dentist, but it's just like, I talk to people about meaning, and I talk to people about where their hopes are, and I talk to people about these things just because what else would I talk to people about?
Joshua Chatraw:It doesn't mean that every conversation has to go, like, you know, a 1000, you know, a 1000 feet deep every time, but to have that kind of attentiveness to the people around you, and to to what God's doing by cultivating this holy curiosity. One thing that's helped me there, and this is so not surprising from a professor, is reading good books, and novels actually, because they give depth to people, and into people's kind of inner thoughts, and I'm kinda like when I do that, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm kinda like, 'Oh, what's going on in there?' You know, there's some layers here. And I think what's always disappointing though is when you, I've shared that before, and some of the particularly guys say, yeah, and, you know, like, you know, 23, yeah, I tried that with the fraternity guys, and there's not a lot going on with a lot of my friends. And I stumble to answer that once they say that, but, and I've said, Well, I think planning, even in those moments, even if you say there's not a lot of depth with some of my friends and some of my acquaintances, I think that they were created for a lot more.
Joshua Chatraw:And if you can begin to plant seeds, like, aren't we made for more? Is there more than, you know, Auburn, Alabama this year? Is there like what's next? No, no, I'm in the wrong place, right? But just saying these kind of existential things and saying, Hey, I love this game, but really, guys, have you thought about more?
Joshua Chatraw:And just planting those seeds. Because time and suffering tend to humble people, and by planting those seeds early on and then and don't giving up and and not give up on them, things come around. And, you know, one of you know, I'm not a huge social media fan, but, I mean, one of the things about all these things is you can stay in touch with people, and, it allows you just to kind of stay in touch through the years and and be available. So holy curiosity. Great.
Joshua Chatraw:Yeah.
Ford Galin:Thank you so much. Matt, do you have any announcements or anything before? Great. Well, with that, I'll pray in a minute, but that'll wrap up kind of our summer talk back series. We'll see you guys back next June and in no other context between now and then.
Ford Galin:No. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you to you all for being here tonight as well. But truly, such encouragement and helpful and really grateful for the ministry that you're doing in a number of contexts. So, if I could pray and then we'll dismiss.
Ford Galin:Lord, God, we rest. Lord, that you are making all things new. God, that, that a day will come and then last for eternity. Over your holy city, full of those from every tribe, tongue and nation. Lord, with those seated on the throne that are were not able to be counted, or that is an unequivocal reality that, to which our lives had.
Ford Galin:God, we just rest in that, Lord, as we seek to pursue these conversations, as we seek to engage and, have a curiosity and a love for and, a persuasive attitude towards, our neighbors, our friends, our family members. God, we just rest that, Lord, you are going to accomplish your purposes. And so, Lord, we simply ask that you would instill in us a faithfulness to go as you would call us, to speak where you would call us, to listen where you would call us. And Lord, it would all stem from us being overjoyed and overwhelmed with your beauty, your splendor, your glory, your holiness. Lord, you're our God.
Ford Galin:So how could we not go day in and day out proclaiming your goodness? Lord, pray you'd be with us as we have these conversations throughout this week, and this month, and this year in our lives. God, I pray you would give us wisdom and skill and tactfulness as we go about. But, Lord, we realize that we are not the ones who are at the center of the story, but it is your work, and we are simply the jars of clay that you've chosen to use to hold your all surpassing power. Lord, would you unleash that power through us however we see fit?
Ford Galin:God, we pray for our city, for those within arms reach of us. Lord, that you would stir in them hearts that would yearn for you. God, we pray for our brother, for doctor Chateau. Lord, that you'd be with him, that you establish the work of his hands. And god, by your grace, allow him to go forward to accomplish the purposes which you have set before him.
Ford Galin:Lord, truly, we love you and pray you'd grow our love for you and be with us as we go. We pray this all in the good and the strong and in the powerful name of Jesus. Amen. Great.
