Theological Coffeehouse: The Atonement
Download MP3In Romans chapter 5, verse 8, Paul writes this, and and this is what I would like to be our launching off point in the scriptures to speak of the atonement. Romans chapter 5 verse 8. Romans chapter 5 verse 8, but God shows his love for us In that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son.
Collin Hansen:Much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And more than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Essentially, all the points of the atonement that that I would like for us to walk through are referenced in that section of scripture. I mean, we're gonna get into the love of God. Christ dying for us.
Collin Hansen:Being justified by the blood of Jesus. Being reconciled to God, and we're going to walk through and see first the necessity of the atonement, then the accomplishment of the atonement, what was achieved, and then the extent of the atonement. Okay? So that that's how we're gonna move through this. So that need for the atonement.
Collin Hansen:In Genesis chapter 3, there is the fall. Alright. Sin enters into the world through the sin of Adam and Eve, and and as, I believe it was Spurgeon said, that didn't just break our pinky toe. That broke the whole man. Like sin sin and the curse of sin ravages humanity.
Collin Hansen:Okay? So we start with sin, and really, this is a key concept in understanding the atonement because if we do not take sin seriously, then we will not take mercy seriously, Right? You see, if sin is just mistakes that we sometimes make and and we just have to apologize to some people for them, and and that's and maybe some maybe some consequences that fall out from that, but but if we have a very low view, if we if we have a a simplified view of sin, it will be much harder for us to see the atonement, the blood of Jesus properly. So taking seriously sin. Look at Ephesians chapter 2.
Collin Hansen:This is another letter by Paul. Ephesians chapter 2. Paul writes this, and you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked. Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. You see, we learn that sin sin has made man evil.
Collin Hansen:Innocence has been lost. I was recently watching, it was actually, Bill O'Reilly was interviewing, Billy Graham's son. I'm sorry. What's, Franklin. You know you know your, your your Graham lineage quite well.
Collin Hansen:So Billy Graham begat Franklin Graham. And Franklin was sitting there with with Bill and they were having a nice back and forth. They were actually talking about, Rob Bell's book, Love Wins. So these 2 guys were talking about that interesting scenario. But as we were going back and forth, Bill Riley said he he kept bringing up, like, innocent people that died who had not heard the gospel.
Collin Hansen:You see, if we if we have a framework where there are innocent people, then we're gonna we're gonna start off at a different point and end up in different places than really where the scriptures permit us to go. You see, we have to begin that that because of the curse of sin, because sin entering into all of humanity, then then there aren't innocent people. We don't necessarily like that. We like that for some people. Like, we like to, you know, there's not a chance okay.
Collin Hansen:That person's evil. That person's wicked. But, But, you know, we we we have to go back to that for for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. We we have to go back not to what feels right or feels good or or makes us, satisfied in our emotions, but we we have to go back to what god's word says, and god's word says that that sin utterly wrecked humanity. Okay?
Collin Hansen:And as Paul says here, dead in our trespasses and our sins. Not wounded, not maimed, but dead in our sin and our trespasses. And he includes us all. When he talks about those that walked according to the passions of the flesh and so on, He includes everyone, and once we we all once walked. We also see that man is a slave to sin.
Collin Hansen:We see that in, in Romans chapter 6, that that man is in slave to sin. Sin is his master and that we are children of wrath, Ephesians 2 3. So then that brings us, well, what is this necessity of the atonement? Well, first, that we are sinful and that that that relationship with god has been broken and needs to be reconciled, that we need to be ransomed, that we need to be redeemed from sin. But there is that question of necessity.
Collin Hansen:Did god have to do this? Did god have to? Is there is there a necessity of the atonement in that god had to save anyone, that god had to reconcile man any man to himself, anyone to himself. And really, this is this is where, this term comes out, consequent absolute, necessity. Consequent, absolute, necessity.
Collin Hansen:That because god so desires that anyone would be saved, anyone would be reconciled, redeemed, ransomed, That now because he so wills that to be, now there is the necessity of the atonement. Now there has to be blood to cover the sins of man and woman. Hebrews chapter 9 verse 22 says this about the bloodshed. Hebrews 922. Indeed, under the law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
Collin Hansen:Without the shedding of blood, there cannot be a forgiveness of sins. And this image is conveyed throughout the Old Testament in the sacrificial system. You know, the blood of bulls and goats which in Hebrews later it is emphasized that that could never really do away with our sin. It could cover it for a time, but it could never do away with it. It could not fully redeem.
Collin Hansen:It could not fully ransom. It could not properly atone. In John chapter 3 verse 4 14, it says this. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. There is a must.
Collin Hansen:There is a necessity that that something greater than bulls and goats, these animal sacrifices, more than that must occur, and because god has so willed this to be that there would be reconciliation, ransom, redemption, something greater than these animals must be sacrificed because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. This is the desire of the lord to to put this in motion. John Murray says these words. The alternative to the giving of God's only begotten son and being lifted up on the accursed tree is the eternal perdition of the lost, the eternal damnation of the lost. That that's the only other option.
Collin Hansen:If it's not the only begotten son, if it is not God himself crucified, God incarnate sacrificed, the only other direction it goes is perdition. So what is the basis for the atonement? What is the basis for this desire, this this agreement even beginning? And I would offer this. We if we trace back all the way through why this agreement even comes about, the genesis of the atonement rests in this, god's love for sinners.
Collin Hansen:And beyond that, we cannot go. And we we can't we can't go any further into the will and mind of the sovereign triune God for some reason that I cannot fathom. God loves sinners. And if you try and make any argument about the atonement, if you try and magnify any other facet, which there are many other facets and many other variables, very important variables. But if you make any other thing more important than that, I think that we start to speak ignorantly and at worst, arrogantly.
Collin Hansen:That in that triune god, father, son, and spirit, he has loved broken, dirty, angry, wrathful sinners. And that is the most amazing part of the atonement, that genesis. And then everything that flows out of it, that's ineffable. That is unspeakable that God would choose to reconcile an uncountable multitude, and that those who have heard the gospel and trusted in Christ partake of that freely. Buy food that have no money.
Collin Hansen:Drink from a well that will not run dry. And that you have any part of that, there's no room for arrogance. There's no room that that speaking about the atonement would be some some hill that you could get up and and just fight people on. That's the the arrogance and the ignorance in that and and the the marriage of the 2 is just disgusting. There's no room for that.
Collin Hansen:Bit of a tangent. All right. So out of God's love, he has elected. Alright. First off, he's elected that he would pursue relationship with sinful man and woman.
Collin Hansen:That he would restore that relationship. Okay. So he he elects, he calls out, he predestines, and that's the other thing. This does not happen after the fall. This happened before.
Collin Hansen:See? See that little Tarantino style there? Like, you gotta get out get out. Move that one back. That happened before the foundation of the earth.
Collin Hansen:Enjoy your minds being blown for a second. Okay. Ephesians chapter 1 verse 3. This is Paul writing here. Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
Collin Hansen:Verse 4. Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. And catch this. In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will. In love, he predestined us.
Collin Hansen:It it it is out of that indescribable, just how how do we even get to understand that kind of love that would predestine a countless, countless multitude to be ransomed. Moving on, we got a lot to cover here. Predestined in love. Other places, John 1, verse 9, verse 13. Who are born not of blood nor the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God.
Collin Hansen:Romans 829, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. That out of god's love, he predestined. He called forth This love of God, John Murray spoke of it in his book, accomplished and applied. The love of God from which the atonement springs is not a distinctionless love. It is a love that elects and predestines.
Collin Hansen:God was pleased to set his love upon a countless multitude and it is the determinant purpose of this love that the atonement secures. The reason the reason of this election resides wholly in himself and proceeds from determinations that are peculiar just as I am that I am. The atonement does not win or constrain the love of god. The love of god constrains the atonement as a means of accomplishing love's determinate purpose. That is God's love on the move.
Collin Hansen:God's love at work, accomplishing what God has decreed. This is his sovereign love, the cause and source of the atonement. Romans 914. Romans 914. What shall we say then?
Collin Hansen:Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy.
Collin Hansen:So we need ransom, but who pays the ransom? We need redemption, but who pays the redemption? You see, often, like, the even just the the image of ransom, we can we can think about a kidnapping of sorts, you know, like Mel Gibson, give me back my son, you know, like those kind of okay. But but this is a different kind of ransom. And and there are a number of different ways in which we can speak about what was accomplished on the cross.
Collin Hansen:And and and we're gonna hit on a couple and and, we hit on one that's foundational really for for all of them. But it is important to to define our terms. So so we have this need for ransom, but in in Psalm 49, we we get this, that that no man can ransom himself. No no one can pay the cost of ransoming oneself. Now there is, in Exodus, 21, there's this law about if you have an ox and it gores someone.
Collin Hansen:Okay. So you have an ox, it gores somebody, they kill the ox. Alright. If it if it's been known to gore. Alright.
Collin Hansen:If it's been known to gore. If it gores someone and it kills them, they will kill the ox, and then they'll kill you. Alright. So so there's the rule. Except the person, let's say that it was, you had Knox that you killed, this this wife and the husband is living.
Collin Hansen:He can issue a ransom on your head. All right. But you pay it. You pay to to to spare your life. Alright.
Collin Hansen:He doesn't pay it. He he he just lost his wife, and and you're the one with the ox. I mean, it it kind of makes sense. Alright. So he he can issue that ransom, though.
Collin Hansen:And then you pay that debt, and you get to live. See, it's not the the kidnapping situation where, the bad guy takes you. You, you know, god pays the debt to the bad man, and you, the innocent person, you get to come home. See, it it it's more like this the story of the the goring ox, where you you it is set on you to to pay this debt because you are liable. You are guilty for this death.
Collin Hansen:But what if the husband issues the ransom and pays the debt? You see, when when this language is is being used in this context, that's the image that these people are getting. You you mean a guilty person is let off, and the ransom is paid by the person who was offended? That that's the image that that Jesus is bringing about that says that the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, to give his life as a ransom for many. See, God makes this way to accomplish.
Collin Hansen:And and there are, like I said, a number of different ways that, and descriptions that that the atonement is talked about in the new testament. What I would say is is the most, emphasized understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ, is is is this. It's penal substitution. Penalty substitution that that someone took the penalty as a substitute, and this one is really kind of the, the the root in which all these other images kind of grow out of it or or at least are influenced by, that there is a penalty, God's wrath, and a penalty due and there is a substitute. Someone else pays that debt.
Collin Hansen:Someone else takes on that penalty of wrath. Now now that's something that, is contested. There are Christians that really don't like the sound of that. The one of the one of the images that's used there is that it's cosmic child abuse, you know, that that the heavenly father looks at his son who is innocent and blameless and executes wrath against his son. They say, how could that be a loving god?
Collin Hansen:But we see in in second Corinthians chapter 5 verse 21. This is this is foundational to understanding the atonement. Paul writes these words, for our sake, he, god, made him Jesus. For our sake, he made him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God. Do you see that substitution?
Collin Hansen:Do you see that exchange that happens there? 2 things. 1, he took our sin and penalty that was due us, but also he gave us his righteousness, and we received the reward of his obedience. You see, because it's not just his death and resurrection, it's also his life, His incarnation is a is a keystone to this atonement. Another word is propitiation.
Collin Hansen:That that means appeasement of god's wrath. That's satisfaction of god's holy anger. That's how he could be that substitute is that he would appease god's wrath. In Romans chapter 3 verse 25, whom, speaking of Christ, whom god put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. This was to show god's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins.
Collin Hansen:That's that old sacrificial system of bulls and goats And the high priest went into the Holy of Holies and behind that veil, in that in that secret place, in that point of divine mystery was covering over sins until there would be a sacrifice, a substitute, a propitiation that his blood and the value, the merit of his blood would cover over sin and wash it away. That that would appease God's wrath. And in that, verse, 25 in in chapter 3 of Romans, that this would display God's righteousness. Not his lack of love or injustice that he would execute this upon his innocent son, but that that would be a display of his righteousness, that it would display his glorious nature, his mercy. So the wrath that was due us is appeased by the substitute of Christ.
Collin Hansen:And then, the image of redemption. In Romans 6, that we would have that master sin and that we would be redeemed from our old master, our former master's sin, under whom we worked unrighteousness. We worked hard at unrighteousness. In fact, so much so that Paul says that we were earning a paycheck for our unrighteousness, and the wages, our paycheck for our unrighteousness was death. But the free gift, the gift that's in Christ, is forgiveness and eternal life.
Collin Hansen:The work that we did not do, the reward that we did not earn, the paycheck we did not deserve, this divine welfare that he would give to us what we do not deserve by any stretch of the imagination. And if you think that you are doing enough things right now to somehow merit it, you know, back payments like he paid the down payment, and you've got the mortgage going, You're running on a treadmill. Okay? You're not going anywhere. You're putting a lot of energy out there, and you think that you're getting far, and you've gotten nowhere.
Collin Hansen:And then reconciliation. One more statement about redemption. The the image that we have for that, you know, Israel redeemed out of Egypt. Exodus 15, that God would send this mediator to bring them out of that captivity, out of that, out of being slaves in Egypt, that that's the same thing that's being brought about in the in the New Testament language here that we have been redeemed out of bondage. And then reconciliation, 2nd Corinthians 5 verse 17, kind of part b.
Collin Hansen:The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. All this is from god who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. That relationship has been restored.
Collin Hansen:That that union with God has been brought about through the blood of Christ and that we have been reconciled. This is his whole life again. This is the incarnation. This is his death and resurrection and his ascension. That is the atoning work of Christ.
Collin Hansen:That is what he has accomplished, and only Christ could accomplish that. Hear these words from John Murray. Only such a person offering such a sacrifice could have dealt with sin so as to remove it and could have made such purification as would secure for the many sons to be brought to glory, access into the very holiest of divine presence. The blood of Jesus is the blood that has the requisite efficacy and virtue only by reason of the fact that he who is the son, the radiance of the father's glory, and the expressed image of his substance became himself also partaker of flesh and blood, and thus was able by one sacrifice to perfect all those who are sanctified. Only Christ.
Collin Hansen:Only in this sacrifice. Only in this manner. Only by the will of God. Only by his divine good pleasure, only by his love for sinners is the atonement made possible. Alright.
Collin Hansen:There are many other ways that the atonement is talked about in the New Testament. You know, the the victory that Christ gives us, the, that it was voluntary. There's so many different things, and and we could we could talk about those, but we're gonna we're gonna move on now and talk about the extent of the atonement, and then we'll take a break. Okay? The extent of the atonement.
Collin Hansen:Going off of some of those last statements there, the atonement does not win God's love. It does not constrain it. It does not win it. It does not rule over it. It is the provision of it.
Collin Hansen:You see that? The atonement didn't win God's love. It didn't achieve god's love. It's the provision of god's love. So, we're we're gonna look at 3 different views on the extent of the atonement.
Collin Hansen:Okay? And, there there are plenty of them out there, but these are 3 of the most popular and I think 3 that we might have some more discussion about. So the first one, unlimited universal redemption. Unlimited universal redemption. It is the belief that God's intent was for Christ to die for all so that all will be saved.
Collin Hansen:Shorthand, universalism. Final restoration of all things to God. This rejects the idea, of an everlasting hell and separation from God. It is that Christ on the cross secured the salvation for everyone whether they confess it or not, whether they reject it or accept it, that that it is for all. This is the perspective that I won't say that he believes because he hasn't said that, although he's been asked about a 1000000 times, but in the Rob Bell book, he favors introducing this idea.
Collin Hansen:Okay? That's I think as far as I can safely say. He favors introducing, emphasizing this idea of a unlimited universal redemption. Also, you might have read, I don't know what kind of newspaper would have this information, but Mercer, the former president of Mercer University, he, in an interview this week, affirmed this position. He's a graduate of Sanford.
Collin Hansen:He has an honorary degree from Sanford and that is his position and that's what he has affirmed, unlimited universal redemption. The next one, limited universal redemption. So we had unlimited universal redemption and now limited universal redemption. The atonement is universal in design, but limited in its accomplishment. Okay.
Collin Hansen:Universal in design, but limited in its accomplishment. Meaning, the the Trinity purpose, the salvation for all, which is the universal part, intended unit salvation for all through Christ's atoning death, but not all are saved in the end. The cross is not directly a satisfaction for sin. It only becomes so when a sinner believes for salvation. This is the traditional Armenian view.
Collin Hansen:Okay? That the cross is not directly a satisfaction for sin, but it becomes so when a sinner believes in Christ for salvation. That's a that's a conditional clause there. Raymond Blackatier, a Canadian pastor and theologian, he kind of summarized it like this, and a lot of this breakdown is from Beak's Living for God's Glory just by the way. All right.
Collin Hansen:For Arminius, the work of Christ on the cross does not effect salvation, you know, propitiation, satisfaction, or redemption. Alright. For any person or group, instead it makes salvation possible. It it it lays the opportunity for salvation. The condition, that god prescribes is faith, and it is up to the individual sinner to use the there's general grace out there, provided by God to take this step of faith if they believe.
Collin Hansen:The the determinative factor in salvation is the free choice of humanity. Salvation depends on the human acceptance of it. Citing, verses such as first John chapter 2 verse 2, he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Okay? So they take that whole world to mean the offer is out there for the whole world.
Collin Hansen:The the cross is sufficient to save everyone. It's universal and its extent, but also believing that it's limited because you have to believe it to obtain it. Okay. We good? All right.
Collin Hansen:Next, limited atonement or particular atonement. There's so many different names for this stuff, but limited or particular atonement. The belief that satisfaction rendered by Christ on the cross was of infinite value and worth by virtue of Christ's incarnation, but its intended object was not sinners in general or every individual, but rather those whom God had elected before the foundations of the earth. The father sent his son to the cross to pay the sins for the elect so that Christ died savingly, effectively, and personally for all of those who are God's chosen people. Though Christ's blood is this is the kind of cliche statement here.
Collin Hansen:Though Christ's blood is sufficient for all, it is efficient only for the elect. It accomplishes its purpose. Whomever Christ died to save will be saved. Not one who belongs to Christ will be lost. So so it's not the opportunity that it's not that the atonement offers the opportunity.
Collin Hansen:It secures salvation for the elect. Okay. So a few summary statements here, and then we'll break for a bit. It is important to keep in mind that we are not saved by doctrine. We are saved by Jesus.
Collin Hansen:You see, we're we're not we're not saved by the the belief in faith alone. We are saved by faith alone. Okay. It's the blood of Christ alone, and it's what he has done. And so I'm gonna guess that there are probably some different views and opinions on these things in here, and I think that that's okay.
Collin Hansen:Now, I don't think that it's always okay. Meaning, I don't think that we have been redeemed to never think about these things. You know, that's why I said that I had that agenda out of out of the gate. But we have to be careful and cautious because we are treading on a holy mystery. And so we have to, walk humbly, submitting to God's spirit and his word and and to be like the Bereans, to to search God's word, to listen to his spirit, to see if these things are true, but not merely true for us, but true.
Collin Hansen:So I'd like to to go back and and read just a a few verses here. Actually, for Tom, I'm just gonna read one. I might read 1, later depending on length of questions and answer time. But let let me just read this to you, and then I'll pray and then you can get drinks and all that stuff. Okay.
Collin Hansen:From Matthew chapter 1. Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother, Mary, had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the lord appeared to him in a dream saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Collin Hansen:Verse 21, she will bear a son. You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. Let's pray. God, give us humility to even think of these things. Give us a hunger to know you and not just about you.
Collin Hansen:And Lord, through your spirit, give us wisdom and insight that that we might know you and love you and adore you, but not merely be those that would adore you, but those that would follow you, trust you, and obey you. Well, I pray over the time of q and a that you would be glorified and that we would not. We pray these things in the strong name of Christ. Amen. Okay.
Collin Hansen:So I felt it it would probably be helpful. And also it would I think that it would have it would be disingenuous if I did not say that in my belief, I agree with the particular or the limited atonement view of the atonement. I believe that God has, elected and predestined those for salvation through the work of Christ, and that the work of Christ did not simply create an opportunity, but secured that, and secured that meaning, that in the work of Christ that that, the children of God, the people of God have been redeemed and ransomed and reconciled through the blood of Jesus and that the wrath due me, was placed on Christ and that Christ has given to the people of God his righteousness. That's a perspective that I come from. That has not always been the case.
Collin Hansen:It's not what I was raised in, And so, yeah, there's that because I think that targets should stand up and be substantial, and so there that is. Okay. So we're gonna open it up and, first question. Yes. Okay.
Collin Hansen:I'll try and summarize it for other people and the recording. The question of if you agree with and view the atonement through the lens of limited particular atonement, how would you then describe when you became a Christian, when you came to faith? And that's where I would I would offer this, and then Joel can hop in if you'd like. The call, the, the gospel call is the same. In that, it is a call to faith.
Collin Hansen:It's a call to believe, because it is through faith. Now what the limited view is going to say is that, that faith is a gift from God that was secured and purchased on the cross. So from the cross, that faith is given to the believer, and in that we would we would look and see because of regeneration, like, when we confessed Christ, when we confessed that that that we cannot save ourselves, that we are sinful, that we are in desperate need of redemption and ransoming and reconciliation with God and that we trust Christ for that and that we believe on him, because anyone who does that, anyone who believes on the name of Christ is saved, is redeemed, is ransomed, And so that call goes out, whosoever believeth. And, and so when when that I think that we can identify that time when we when we confessed that. Now when was that secured on Calvary, and when was that predetermined before the foundations of the earth?
Collin Hansen:But when did you declare salvation in Christ alone? Whenever you did. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.
Collin Hansen:Because I'm sorry? Yeah. First off because God calls us to. You know, he invites us to join in that in prayer, and that we, that we would be burdened for people, as as Paul talks about the I mean, the the same anxiety that he talks about, in Philippians about, you know, don't be anxious for anything. He later says, I'm anxious over the church.
Collin Hansen:He's heavily burdened, To to to ride sidecar to man much smarter than myself, CS Lewis, it changes me, 1st and foremost. Like my like that I that I view God as the one that I must appeal to because I'm not going to just say, you know, Daniel be smarter. See this more clearly. Be more logical. I'm gonna say God change his heart.
Collin Hansen:Open his eyes. Take the veil from his eyes that he would see your gospel fully and that you would transform him. Joe? Great.
Joel Brooks:I would say it's hard for me to understand when somebody does not believe that God is sovereign over someone's hearts. To me, the question is, why would he pray to that God if God can't change the person's heart? Because even my most Armenian friends pray, I hate to use Armenian Calvinist, but they pray like they're Calvinist in the sense of I've never known anybody to pray that God would grant free will to this person. God, they're not choosing you. Honor that.
Joel Brooks:Instead, you pray, God, they're not choosing you. Change their heart. Break down those walls of resistance. And when you're praying there, you're praying God sovereignly enter their life and just regenerate them. And so I do think the way we pray is we we pray believing the sovereignty of God in that.
Joel Brooks:And do do we change God's will? I don't think so. You know, first Samuel 15, god's not like man that he should change his mind. And so he doesn't hear our argument or whatever and change. He he aligns us to his will is how I would see doing that.
Collin Hansen:David. Okay. So the question is is is God's love, grace, mercy limited when there would be someone that is not elect? Okay. First, we we don't get out of that question through the unlimited or general atonement because there are still those that are not redeemed.
Collin Hansen:Now we're going to say well that's, they're held accountable then to their unbelief. It's their unbelief and so that's their rejection of Christ. But we're still going to make it limited. See, the limited nature is that God's love is still Are we going to say that God's love is limited and that anyone would perish to hell? And the only way out of that would then be to go to the universal unlimited atonement where it's everybody free for all.
Collin Hansen:The problem with that is that no scripture lets us go there. Then as we get to that question of, you know, in Romans 9 where, you know, is God unjust? Is it what what is his love limited, that anyone would be, cast out? And he says, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. And beyond that, like we just we we can't go, into that and and I just I wouldn't go into saying that it's a limit of his love.
Collin Hansen:It's an expression of his love that anyone would be saved. And and we can't work simply out of that, that notion, that personal notion that it's true, and I definitely sympathize with that, but I don't think that we can extrapolate a theology from that emotion without just submitting to God's word where he says that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and be consistent with that. But but I think it is important just to reemphasize that there is a limiting quality to the limited universalist. There are many in view. There's still a limiting quality because it's limiting it's not going to limit the extent, but it's going to limit the efficacy, you know, the effective quality of God's work because then it's saying, well you intended on everyone to be saved but you didn't follow through on that.
Collin Hansen:You didn't accomplish that because they have rejected you. Joel or
Joel Brooks:Yeah. I would say the only other way to to kind of sidestep that the issue of the extent of God's love is if you wanted to say, well, then God could not have known. You you you would have to limit his foreknowledge. Because whether God created a person, you know, going to hell or created a person giving him absolute free choice but knowing he was going to hell. There's really not a difference in there.
Joel Brooks:And so you you would have to put, okay, I'd have to limit we can't have a God who foreknows anything. That would be the only way that I could if I'm going to limit that love, if, you know, that's the only way he could really love everybody is if he doesn't know who's gonna choose and who's not gonna choose, and then he could create people. But then we don't have an omnipotent God or or a God who knows the future.
Collin Hansen:Thomas The role of the Lord's supper and atonement. What we walked through at the start, the, the necessity of the atonement and, the accomplishment of the atonement. So many things compete for us to to believe those things, to believe our sinfulness, our our need for salvation and the work of Christ, what he what he has accomplished through the cross. And I believe that the the Lord's supper is the opportunity for the church to be habitually reminded of the work of Christ on the cross and to enter into a way in which the spirit ministers to us in in in a in a mysterious way that that the spirit ministers to us in proclaiming the truth of the gospel, reminding us of the gospel. Because I I don't care if your church does it, you know, once a year or every week or twice a week.
Collin Hansen:You will sin, and and and somehow in your lifestyle reject the truth of the gospel in just the way that you live, like you will disobey in some manner, I will, between the times that I have taken it, and I need to be reminded of the the ransoming, redeeming, reconciling work of Christ. And and I believe that the lord's the lord's supper offers that to us both in a remembering, but also in a in a mysterious way in which the the lord ministers to our hearts and minds. Yep. You're gonna answer it for me? Okay.
Collin Hansen:The question, the question was, in short, just how how does this actually and realistically impact the life of a believer day to day and in particular me? And you can answer this yourself for me as much as you'd like. No. It's appropriately humiliating that the divine and human son of God would take my filthiness upon himself and then offer me his perfect righteousness, And that in that, while I was an enemy of God that he died for me. It's funny.
Collin Hansen:I was thinking earlier today, that that that while you were an enemy of god, Christ died for you. That that went out to ears like, if you were 30 years old in in the Roman culture, when or in Rome when that letter came to you, you were 10 years old when Christ died. And so you're thinking, I was an enemy. I was 10 years What did I do when I was 10 years old? Or maybe if you were a little bit older, you're like, I was 17, maybe I was starting to be an enemy of God.
Collin Hansen:I mean, they These weren't people, they weren't all Jews. They were like gentiles as well in in the Roman church. And, and to know that, yeah, you were an enemy. And take that to me like I was a long time from being born, and I was an enemy. And that Christ's work secured that, that that ransoming and that I live today ransomed.
Collin Hansen:And it and it it turns obedience from an obligation to an expression of devotion to God. It turns that upside down and and what all other religions and unfortunately many Christian settings, emphasize to people in obedience and, morality and ethical living just rejects that celebration of being able to look at the righteousness of Christ and and Christ alone. And that from him, my greatest needs have been met. My deepest need of reconciliation with God has been met. And there are lots of needs and problems and things that I will meet tomorrow because there are lots of problems and things that I met today.
Collin Hansen:But my deepest need, my greatest need, has been met in Christ. And then that transforms the way that I share that good news because it is good news with others.
Joel Brooks:Here we go. For me, like Jeff said, it's laying the groundwork for worship, which is humility. And, I would say, I mean, I remember when I really wrestled with this and came to believe this as a freshman in college. And it had what I would call a knee buckling effect to me. Just nothing else had brought me to the knee my knees like that in worship.
Joel Brooks:Because I truly realized what Christ had accomplished on the cross and that I I did nothing. Even my own faith, which I at one time boasted in, how I believe this over others is like, no. That that was purchased for you on the cross as well. And I think that's the place for it when you when you look through, the book of Romans. It puts atonement and the sovereignty of God, what I would, sovereignty, you know, when you get to Romans 9, I guess some predestination there, if you look where that's at, there's the gospel first.
Joel Brooks:You know, that everybody's a sinner. You know, there's the general knowledge of God, then everybody's sin, and then, what Christ is achieving on the cross, then how even though we're saved we still struggle with sin. And then he hits Romans 9 in election and predestination and how this atonement was purchased for us on the cross, even before the foundations of the world. And that's that last piece before you get to Romans 12, which is worship. And I think Calvinists, a lot of times get really excited and they move it to the very front.
Joel Brooks:They want to put predestination in Romans 1, when it's in Romans 9. And I think right before worship, it really sets the heart for worship. And I think another practical thing, this is gonna be a shameless teaser. But this Sunday, as we go through Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 4, something I never even noticed while studying it this morning. Every time Peter speaks, and in each of the first four chapter in Acts, he talks about God being sovereign over everything, all the evil that's happening.
Joel Brooks:And he hits it and he hits it and hits it. And he nails it in 4. When he talks about, you know, Pilate and Herod did what you predestined before and it happened. And and when he's presenting the gospel, he's like, god is in complete and absolute total control of all of this. So teaser, acts 4, this Sunday, 5 o'clock, Redeemer Community Church.
Collin Hansen:Yes. I'm really bad at pretending.
Joel Brooks:I tried
Collin Hansen:to call. What does this universalist do with that passage? What does a universalist do with with John 6?
Joel Brooks:I can hear you. The question is, in John 6 when Jesus says, all that the Father has given Me shall come to Me and
Collin Hansen:He shall come to Me. He will come to Me if there is a
Joel Brooks:And so, you can say, yes, it's true that all that He gives will come to me but others might come as well. So you can answer that in that, okay, yes, that's true. But He's not excluding saying the others won't. And so that is how a universalist would would answer that. It's a bad answer, but it's it's how they would answer it.
Collin Hansen:Yeah. So the question, is there are there particular things about the atonement that or or the doctrine of atonement that you have to believe to be a believer or a follower of Christ. Is that a Yeah. Decent? Okay.
Collin Hansen:Yes. I believe that there are components, Primarily because the the doctrine of atonement is testifying to the gospel. I mean, much of what I walked through was just the, you know, the gospel in a little bit more long form. And so to that end, a rejection of of Jesus dying as a substitute, You know, that he would actually take on sin and absorb the wrath of God. Rejecting that really is rejecting the cross.
Collin Hansen:Because then you're saying, I want Jesus as a teacher not as a savior. And that is not how how Jesus comes in the gospel. That's that's not who he presents himself to be. And so in doing that, we would we would the a person would be rejecting the heart of the gospel, the cross. So to that end but as far as like signing off on a on a doctrinal, you know, list or something like that, no.
Collin Hansen:I mean, it's the blood of Jesus only. That's our only appeal. It's not but I did really good with, you know, doctrine. No. It's it's it's Christ alone.
Collin Hansen:But, you know, particular to, like, the universalist perspective and things like that, typically that Universalist perspective, what comes along with it, is a rejection of, maybe not outright, but implicitly a rejection of much of the scriptures and who Jesus claims to be and what he came to do. And in doing that, in rejecting the scriptures, you can you can quite easily be rejecting the gospel and and and really a faith in Christ as a redeemer. And and so that that's what I would say. Yeah. So the question that, wouldn't one of the other views, maybe the the Universalist view or the Arminian view, of a wider extent of the opportunity of the gospel or the wider application for the universalist perspective, wouldn't that bring more glory to God?
Collin Hansen:To that, one I would say that that brings with it typically that question would have a connotation that it's a really small remnant and not the countless multitude that God has. I mean, everyone who believes in the name of Christ, everyone who looks to Christ for salvation, who who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And not just those that have the same doctrinal agreements. Like, not just those that go to the same ex church. You know?
Collin Hansen:Like, it's it's those who who trust and believe in the gospel and look to Christ and follow him in trust and obedience. I mean, that is that is the promise of the gospel. So I wouldn't make it so particular to just think that it's like, you know, 30 people that live in Arizona. You know? So, and then beyond that, it's also the the glory of God and the success of evangelism.
Collin Hansen:The glory of God in it the the message of the gospel going out and accomplishing what God has ordained it to do. That God is sending out through his spirit the word of hope and and the good news and that those who are called will respond in faith. And that is glorious to Christ. It is glorious to the triune God. It's glorious to the effective cross, you know, the cross that that secures that and does that and accomplishes what God before the foundation of the earth set out to do.
Collin Hansen:And that he would say, I have I have not lost one. And and they're not all great or perfect or even friendly. You know, but but it is it is the work of Christ in in the lives of these, believers throughout time and and and space.
Joel Brooks:The only thing I would add to that is you you said the center of the cross is just to display that God loves sinners. It also displays God hates sin. And you have to add that as well. It it's it's displaying both of those things. He does love sinners, and he hates sin.
Joel Brooks:And, therefore, how can he also display that attribute? And that will will be in the the judgment of some. So
Collin Hansen:Alright. We probably have time for one more question.
Joel Brooks:Take it again. Anybody?
Collin Hansen:Okay. I will answer first by saying this. Oh, yeah. Putting putting myself back in a in a point where I didn't necessarily agree with or see this view of the atonement, putting myself back there. A question of, why why do I think that or specifically why?
Collin Hansen:Yeah. Okay. I do this a lot with questions. 1st, first I would say that I we we have to be careful about anything that we believe now, no matter what it is. Even if it's like I I really hate the band Creed, You know, like, because you're gonna look back at at you who really liked Creed in my own prison and you're gonna you're gonna just chastise him for his terrible taste in music.
Collin Hansen:But there are a couple good songs on that record. But, you and and so I don't wanna do that because because that Jeff, who had a terrible haircut, that Jeff believed in Jesus and loved him and knew him and hoped in him. And so I can't I mean I mean, I I have to first recognize that. Now, couple of things and not to not to get superior in any way, which is a real risk when we talk about these things, is that I did, but just as fact, I did not read my Bible. Okay?
Collin Hansen:There are occasions, but I didn't I really didn't spend time in God's Word. And I didn't really think about these things. And as soon as I started reading my Bible, it's not like it just I was like, oh, I've now achieved a superior view of the bible. No. It was through a lot of conversations and a lot of a lot of heated conversations of disagreements.
Collin Hansen:And so it's not something that, that I was just like, oh, this seems like a superior view because I don't. And there's still vast, vast things that I struggle with greatly in this particular view. And, again, this is a this is a view. This is a vantage point. You know, this is still striving to understand the mystery of God in the atonement.
Collin Hansen:So this isn't by any stretch the the thing that you just put in your pocket and and and now you're a card carrying Calvinist or anything. Because there's so many things about Calvin having read the institutes and and other things that I don't agree with. So, I don't just sign up for something like that. I I strive to to seek the Lord through his word and his spirit. And, and and I appreciate the work of many godly men, but I I definitely don't sign myself up for their day camp or anything.
Collin Hansen:So
Joel Brooks:For me, I grew up definitely very, very Armenian, free will, my choice. And, also kinda armed to the teeth with scripture that I thought had supported that, and ready to fight anybody. I I was one of those obnoxious Armenians, who just loved to fight. And I can remember very vividly with me, somebody just didn't argue with me and said, just read your bible. And it infuriated me.
Joel Brooks:I was like, of course I'm reading my bible. I've got 50 scriptures I am ready to quote against you. And he's like, just read your bible. And I just kept reading, and and God just broke this down. And this is a person who before, me and another guy, we actually handed him a Bible that only had Romans 9 through 11 in it and said since this is all you read, here it is.
Joel Brooks:You know, thinking that the sovereignty of God was limited to those three chapters. And, just realizing how how wrong I was seeing it. And a lot of the objections I had towards Calvinism, really if I were to look in the mirror, I didn't have answers for those. You know, I I realized I was struggling with the same things of atonement as they would be struggling with. And, anyway, it's just scripture after scripture just just broke me down.
Joel Brooks:And I I became, I hate to use the word Calvinist, but a very reluctant one. Very reluctantly. And even praying, God, I despise this doctrine. I remember that. I despise it.
Joel Brooks:I hate it. But it's in your word. And it's amazing. It became an absolute joy and lit a fire in me when I believe that. My evangelism exploded.
Joel Brooks:My my worship exploded in those things, which is interesting because people are like, evangelism explode when we believe in the sovereign and God predestination. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I can make a great scriptural argument for that as well. But for me, that was that was the case. I wanted to fight everybody else.
Joel Brooks:So
Collin Hansen:Alright. We're gonna close. But that doesn't mean that the questions have to end. And and also, and I think I made this comment when I taught on inerrancy last year. We do this in a church setting because we're a community.
Collin Hansen:Alright? And and we do this because conversations don't just happen in in this context. Right? We we we strive to live together and to live out the gospel together. And, we strive to understand and worship the Lord together.
Collin Hansen:Alright? And so so this isn't just, these aren't talking points. Right? This is us striving, trying to be like those Bereans to, to search the scriptures and to see what's true, and to encourage each other along the way. And so, we want to continue these conversations.
Collin Hansen:We want to encourage one another in the word, and listening to the spirit. And, you can do these kinds of things as talking points, hot debates, and just scream at one another. But but we're a community. And we're we're a believing community and we are looking out for the best for one another. And so, how about, how about I pray and then, we can start getting chairs together and stuff like that.
Collin Hansen:Hear these words from Isaiah 53. Surely, he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
Collin Hansen:Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace. And with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned everyone to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Lord, we look to Christ.
Collin Hansen:We look to what you have accomplished and what you have applied to your people. And we thank you that we can say that because you have loved the world so greatly, you sent your son to die that we might have life. And whosoever, whosoever, whosoever believes the beautiful gift of faith that you purchased on the cross. That we would not go down that road to perdition, but we would have eternal life in you. And so with humility we delight in that.
Collin Hansen:And with grace we love one another, striving to know you and to obey you. We pray these things in the strong name of Christ. Amen. Thanks for coming everybody.
