Theological Lecture: Faith and Sexuality: Old News or Good News?
Download MP3I do have the pleasure of introducing doctor Gordon Bowles. We're very thankful to have him here. We've had him in the past to do some of our talk backs, and, we're pleased to do so again tonight. Just a little bit about, doctor Gordon Bowles. He is 1997, he started Daymarc counseling, Daymarc pastoral counseling.
Speaker 1:Some of you guys may be familiar with that. You may not. He counsels in a whole variety of areas, but especially focuses on marital difficulties, grief, trauma, religious and spiritual issues, and a whole other variety of ways. He is an adjunct professor at Beeson Divinity School, as well as at Liberty University. He has written a book that we have at our book table back there, called Common Ground, Discovering God's Redemption in Your Marriage.
Speaker 1:It's a book on marriage, so I encourage you to go check that out. He's married to his wife, Dawn, has 3 daughters, I believe. 3. Correct? Make sure I got that right.
Speaker 1:And, we are really pleased to have him here tonight. So I hope that, you guys are able to think of some good questions for the second half this time and check out his book in the back. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Dwight. Grateful to be here, and, I think I'm grateful to be talking about sex and sexuality. I would write those questions down because it might be hard to ask them when we get there. You might want to remember the question, okay? It's a little funny, you guys.
Speaker 2:Come on, man. That's about as funny as I'll probably get too, so What I hope, when we're done, is that you have a more robust picture of sexuality and sex. I think you get a very limited view from our culture, and I think the scriptures present a really robust view, hence our title, Christian Sexuality Old News or Good News. I think it's really good news, and I hope that when I'm done, you have a little bit more of a life giving perspective on both your sexuality and your sex. In a way our especially if you're married.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I'm gonna give you a little bit of an overview, kind of 3 general themes, how sexuality has been viewed. This is from Tim Keller. The first one is sexual realism, and that is sex is like any other kind of physical thing, sleeping or eating, and in that view, they wanna demystify sex, and it's just something you kinda wanna learn how to master and use it responsibly. This might be taught in kind of public sex education, alright, but it really takes sex out of the context of its sacredness and its beauty in a way it connects us to God and his kingdom, alright, And then sexual platonism, which really came from Plato, where he separated the spirit and the body, and he said the body was a lower nature, a more animalistic or dark nature, and the spirit was the more noble nature, so sex, because of Plato, began to be viewed as something that was not good. You were only to do it for the sake of procreation.
Speaker 2:Both of these views have impacted the church through history, but Platonism really affected the church, where it really began to teach that sex is only for procreation. Alright? And then, the 3rd kind of main view that influences us more today is sexual romanticism, which is sex is repressed creativity. Romantics really believed that we were indelibly good, and really culture was inhibiting us, and so sex from a romantic view becomes a means of self expression, and they would be people who would teach, like, if you're single and you're not having sex, there's really something wrong because it's a way of fulfillment, and you should and must be having sex. It's that important.
Speaker 2:It's a way to really know yourself and fulfill yourself. Alright? And the view I wanna talk about tonight that Keller calls sex is sacramental, alright, and he says this, contrary to the platonic view, the scriptures indicate that sex is really good. In fact, I think if you were to read song of songs, most of you would blush if you read it, because it's that real about the beauty of the sexual relationship, and something that God would command is good. Having sex is good, alright, contrary to the platonic view.
Speaker 2:Contrary to sex's appetite view, the bible teaches that sexual desires are broken and can be idolatrous. We have to hold our sexuality as a gift and learn how do we steward that, because our sexual appetite can be holy and it can be broken, and we have to learn how do we keep bringing that before the lord and before community, and move towards a more life giving view of sexuality. Alright? And then contrary to the romantic view, the Bible teaches that love and sex are not primarily for individual happiness, but they help us to really know Christ and build his kingdom, and we'll talk a little bit more about that tonight, but sex is sacramental, transcendent, even holy for a couple of reasons. One is is that as we learn to steward our sexuality, and we can only steward our sexuality with God's help, because it is really to move us towards community and towards our spouse, and to be able to really embody sex that way, we have to be bringing it before the lord and letting him help us.
Speaker 2:So sex is sacramental because our sexuality is a witness to the kingdom character of faithfulness and our exclusive love for the Lord. In some ways, as you become more sexually mature in a really robust and beautiful way, at the very same time, it's saying something about what's going on between you and the lord. Okay? So that's why it's sacramental. It's sacramental because it's a picture of the joyous self giving and pleasure of love within the trinity.
Speaker 2:I think somehow what we experience in moments where we really really feel alive as a man or a woman, or what we might experience as a married couple, That's a picture, that's a taste of what the trinity experiences on a regular basis. That's another reason sex is sacramental. It also constitutes what Keller calls a covenant renewal ceremony, and we'll talk about this at the last part of our session. I'm gonna talk about marital sex, but as a married couple, it's a little bit like communion. You vulnerably come back together again and again and again, looking to meet your spouse and god in a really unique way.
Speaker 2:It's a covenantal renewal ceremony. And then finally, and this is what was only taught when, the platonic view was really, popular, was that sex creates a new soul. You procreate in the act of sex. Have a child. It's sacred because of that, but I want us to think about the sacredness of sex and how we hold that with the Lord, and it becomes more robust and beautiful.
Speaker 2:I wanna talk about 3 different aspects of our sexuality, and the first is that we're all created as a man or a woman. Biologically, we're created as a man or a woman, and we're physically created that way, but there's a shape to our soul that I'll talk about a little bit later. Alright? So I'm define gender sexuality this way. It refers to being a person made in the image of god, either male or female, who is growing in their ability to reflect the uniqueness of their gender and how they relate and live in the world.
Speaker 2:We're gonna flesh that out. I just want to mention something, because of our culture and the culture wars that are going on. I don't know if you know this, but I have it down there. There's actually an intersex condition, and I define it this way. Someone who experiences an acute experience of living in a fallen world, as their genitalia do not reflect a key clear indication of being male or female.
Speaker 2:I've actually counseled people with this condition. I want you to know there are some people who are literally confused about their sexuality because of the way they were born, and they're really caught at the extremes of the gender wars that are going on in a really sad way. The way it used to be decided was the doctor decided it decades ago, and they would assume a sex and try to move toward that. But that's a real life condition that some people and if you wanna walk with someone who has deep questions about god and his sovereignty as someone who's born with that condition. Okay?
Speaker 2:So, if you're following along, you can turn the page. Alright? In terms of our gender sexuality being created as a man or a woman, alright, your sexuality is your energy that helps you to know and be known. Alright? Your sexuality is an energy that helps you to know and be known.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna read a passage that I have there, 1st John 4. It says this, dear friends, since god has so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is made complete in us. Yo. We live we were made for the garden of Eden, and we live in a fallen world that's broken, and we were made for more love than we can experience here, but we are to keep moving towards a deeper expression of agape, eros, all types of love.
Speaker 2:We're to move to a fuller expression of that through the gospel. Alright? The next passage I have there is this, John 17. I'm praying not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me, because of them and their witness about me. The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind, just as you, father, are in me, and I in you, so they might be one heart and mind with us.
Speaker 2:Then the world might believe that you in fact sent me. That same glory you gave me, I gave them, so they'll be as unified and together as we are. I in them and you in me, then we'll be mature in this oneness. I want you to hear this. We're to be moving, whether it's as a church body, as a family, and friendships, we're to be moving towards a deeper expression of unconditional, agape love.
Speaker 2:We're to be moving towards that. It's a painful, arduous, beautiful, wonderful process, but your sexuality is a gift that helps you move towards oneness. Alright? And then the last passage I have there is this, For we know we only see for now, we see only a reflection is in a mirror, then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Speaker 2:There will be a day like no other day when you will experience rest. You will no longer feel insecurity, because you will be fully known. Between now and that day, we're to move towards deeper expression of knowing others and being known, and our sexuality is our energy that helps us to do that. Okay? I have a quote, from Balswick and Balswick there.
Speaker 2:It says this. When we relate to each other as male and female persons, we do so in the context of our sexuality. We make a distinction between sexual energy and erotic energy in relating to others. Being created as sexual beings means we have physical capacity for erotic sexuality, but generally, our sexual energy gives us a vitality for relating to others that goes beyond our erotic instincts. Our sexuality brings energy and enthusiasm to the process of knowing and being known, satisfying our deep longing for belonging, connection, and interdependence.
Speaker 2:So you're clear on what gender sexuality is. It helps us as a man move into deeper levels of masculinity where we're being known and knowing others, or as a woman, deeper levels of femininity where we're being known and knowing others. That's gender sexuality. I'm gonna describe 2 other set types of sexuality, erotic sexuality and genital sexuality. But I wanna pause and simply say this.
Speaker 2:As we begin to talk about erotic sexuality and genital sexuality, there's a level of mystery to how it really works. It's not an easy subject to talk about partly because of some of the shame that can be associated with sexuality, and so we have to talk about it humbly and with openness, with a mixture of grace and truth. I have a passage there. I'm only gonna read part of it. This is Corinthian Corinthians 6 from the message.
Speaker 2:Alright? Actually, I'm a I'll read it all for our purposes. Eugene Peterson translates Corinthians 6 this way, there's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in scripture, the 2 become 1.
Speaker 2:Since we wanna become spiritually 1 with the master, we not must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever, the kind of sex that can never become 1. There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin, we violate the sacredness of our own bodies. These bodies that were made for god given and god modeled love for becoming one with another. Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the holy spirit?
Speaker 2:Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what god paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works, so let people see God in and through your body. When he says sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact, I think he puts good words to the mystery, to the otherness that's involved in our sexuality. Okay?
Speaker 2:So we have gender sexuality, erotic sexuality is this, a heightened sense of sexual energy that mysteriously propels us beyond everyday relational boundaries into a more intimate sense of communion with another person experienced in a relational or a relational and physical way. This can be experienced outside of marriage, and a maturing believer moving toward a place where erotic sexuality is experienced can it can be experienced outside of marriage and a maturing believer moving toward a place where erotic sexuality is experienced exclusively in the context of marriage. So it can be experienced outside of marriage. It can also be experienced inside of marriage, as a couple is moving together to deep places of oneness. I wanna talk about a category, and maybe we'll flesh it out a little bit in question and answer, and it's the sexualization of intimacy.
Speaker 2:You can feel intimacy with a person, and that, for some people, that person can be the same gender. It can be your spouse. It cannot be your spouse. You can feel intimacy with a person that is sexualized, where you feel erotic towards that person. Alright?
Speaker 2:Here's how I'm divine defining the sexualization of intimacy. It's when intimate relational connection is erotic outside the context of marriage. This is normal in a fallen world and can lead to deeper holiness or more grievous sin. K. If you're experiencing erotic sexuality, I think in general, a lot of people experience that outside the context of marriage.
Speaker 2:You could work with someone that's not your spouse, or you're not married, you work with someone, and that intimacy can turn into erotic thoughts or feelings. Okay? Now depending on your level of maturity, that could be dangerous, and you need to flee that. There are cases, if this will make any sense, where that has to be worked through, because it can be temptation in your mind, and you can resist that temptation, and grow to a much deeper and holier sense of your own sexuality. Okay?
Speaker 2:So you can experience a sexualization of intimacy, where intimacy is sexualized in your mind outside the context of your marriage, that can be really dangerous, and you need to flee that. It can be in the context of a maturing, growing relationship where you turn away from that, and your flesh is mortified or crucified, and you grow to a place where you're moving more and more and more away from that, and more and more and more, you're experiencing that in the context of your marriage, if you're married. Okay? If you have any questions about that, during question and answer, we can talk about that, but I wanted to throw that in between gender sexuality and erotic sexuality. Okay?
Speaker 2:The last type is genital sexuality. This is the most specific and easiest to understand of the types of sexuality. This type of sexuality involves the physical sexual acts themselves, such as foreplay and genital stimulation that leads to orgasm. Our culture, the culture you live in, idolizes genital sexuality, and it's really the only kind they teach. Maybe erotic sexuality as well.
Speaker 2:Okay? Now, what we're gonna do, that's a background, and there's gonna be 2 parts to what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk about gender sexuality, which has nothing to do with marriage. It can have a lot to do with marriage. It doesn't have to do with marriage, and then we're gonna talk about marriage sexuality.
Speaker 2:Alright? So I wanna flesh out some categories. How do we steward our gender sexuality? How do we become more of a man, more of a woman in everyday life? Okay.
Speaker 2:How do we move towards that? A more life giving expression of our masculinity or our femininity, and I want to preface it. I'm gonna read this passage from Genesis and then quote something from Larry Kramm. When god created man, he made him in the likeness of god. Male and female, he created them.
Speaker 2:Could it be, I wondered, that masculinity and femininity have something to do with how men and women relate in human community? How they relate by the spirit's power in ways that correspond to how the father and son relate in divine community. I had Larry Crabb in class, and there was a class where he drew a picture on the board, and he said men and women are made in a physical they have a different physical shapes, and he said, I believe the physical shape is also a picture of a masculine soul and a feminine soul, and so he drew a picture, I wish I had a whiteboard, where it was like, kind of like a male anatomy. Okay. There was an opening, and then that was the shape of a woman's soul, and then he drew a picture of a man's soul where it looks like kind of something coming out of the man, like a penis, where that's the now, he he talks about man and woman have a physical shape, and they have a relational shape, and I wanna try to make sense of that, because if we're gonna move towards becoming more of a man and more of a woman, we have to understand what does a redemptive man or woman look like.
Speaker 2:The easiest way for me to talk about this is in the context of marriage, and that doesn't mean that it's unimportant outside of marriage at all, but where we see our sexuality most clearly is in relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Okay? I had no idea I wasn't a man in the way I related through my gender until I moved in with a woman, and then I became personally naked and physically naked, and I realized that my masculinity was lacking. If we want to understand what it means to become more of a man or more of a woman, we can look at how a god how god calls a man and a woman to relate in the context of marriage, because it shows what's hard for a man and a woman, and how they have to grow and change. The 2 major commands to a man are keep treating your wife with understanding and sacrifice for your wife like Christ did for the church.
Speaker 2:We use words for masculinity like pursue and initiate and leadership, and I think they can be good words, but I know a lot of men who tell their wives what to do and feel like really good leaders, and they have no idea how to really be involved with their wife. They have no idea really how to sacrifice for their wife like Christ did for the church, or to keep treating their wife with understanding, so I think a man, a masculine man, is a man who's able to be involved with his wife and with his friends, where he advances the gospel and how he relates. K? A man who's growing in his masculinity is able to be involved with the people in his world where he advances the gospel. I'll give you a simple, crazy, little picture.
Speaker 2:Okay? I'm playing wiffle ball with my daughters. I grew up playing wiffle ball outside, and I thought, I want my girls this is when they were much younger. I want them to play wiffleball outside, and I'm hoping people will come and play with us like we did when I grew up. Well, it was only us playing wiffleball.
Speaker 2:No one joined us, But I remember the first time we were playing wiffle ball, and my girls didn't know the rules, and so they went from home base to 2nd base, and they were upsetting their dad, and the more upset I got, the more crazy they got. And I thought, what's the goal of us playing wiffle ball? The goal of us playing wiffle ball is to connect a father with his daughters, and I repented of my anger, and I started being crazy and having fun, and we laughed and we connected, and in that moment, I wasn't being a leader per se by making sure they learn the rules. I was being a leader by advancing the gospel, and us being playful together and connecting. You may think that's a crazy picture of masculinity.
Speaker 2:I think it's a growing picture of masculinity. Okay? So let's talk about femininity for a second. Major commands to a woman, 3 big words, respect, submit, and strength. Not fun words, not favorite words.
Speaker 2:I've chosen what I think are better, holier words for our culture, and that's appreciate, cooperate, and strength. Because a woman is geared a little bit more towards wanting relationship in the creation mandate, Says be fruitful and multiply, rule and subdue. A woman more wants to be fruitful and multiply. That's why when Eve was cursed, she was cursed in the area of her relationships. There'll be pain in bringing forth children, which is literal, pain in childbirth, but there's also pain in bringing forth life in your children, relating to them.
Speaker 2:Women experience a greater pain. Your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you. That literally means, in the Hebrew, you wanna control your husband. There's something you're gonna want from him, but he's free. What is hard for a woman is relationally to stay open, to stay appreciative, to stay cooperative, to stay strong, okay.
Speaker 2:So I have a simple sentence where I flesh this out, A man that is steadfast, tender, and involved demonstrates robust masculinity, whereas a woman that is appreciative, cooperative, winsome, and strong demonstrates rich femininity. We had to have an extra descriptive term for women, okay, because they are much wilder and freer in beautiful ways than men, okay? Alright. So now we're gonna have a case study where we flesh this out, alright. Well, it looks like we'll probably only get to this first part of sexuality, we'll see, alright.
Speaker 2:But I want to use some examples. So, I've got Anne, it's down in your paper, it's a 37 year old single female. She has a degree in finance and an MBA, and has steadily climbed the ladder with Regions Bank. She has several good friends and used to be the one who regularly planned get togethers, usually at her house, but lately has found more joy in gardening. She is regularly plagued by fear and guilt.
Speaker 2:That maybe she is too much for any man and should not be withdrawing from her friends as much. 37 year old single female living in Birmingham, Alabama, you clearly experienced the curse in that context, okay, because of the loneliness that's involved. She has her degree in finance an MBA, and has steadily climbed the ladder with Regions Bank. Several good friends used to be the one holding the get togethers. Lately, she's found more joy in gardening.
Speaker 2:She's plagued by fear and guilt that she may be too much for any man. She and she thinks she should not be withdrawing from her friends as much. Jim is a 40 year old partner with a large law firm in town, been married for 14 years, has 4 children, ages 12, 10, 8, and 4. He's very involved in his church as a deacon and a Sunday school teacher. He is regularly plagued by frustration and guilt that his wife seems too stressed, and his periodic struggles with masturbation and or viewing pornography don't seem to be getting better.
Speaker 2:40 year old partner in a law firm, 4 children, very involved in his church as a deacon and Sunday school teacher, regularly plagued with frustration and guilt that his wife seems too stressed, and his periodic struggles with masturbation or viewing pornography don't seem to be getting better. How do Anne and Jim move towards a more robust masculinity and a more robust femininity? I'm a give you a couple thoughts. Okay? The first one is that accept we all experience and demonstrate sexual brokenness.
Speaker 2:I'll read a quote there. The point is simple and disturbing. Every human being on this earth struggles with sexual thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that are contrary to love and in conflict with the holiness of God. We can either pretend that a few struggle with sexual problems that don't tempt the rest of us, or we can openly acknowledge that all humanity is caught up in sexual wars and must be engaged if we are truly human. So let me ask you this, when it comes to being sexually broken, how would you encourage Anne and Jim?
Speaker 2:Alright? If I was talking with Anne, Anne does not believe that she's demonstrating sexual brokenness, okay, Because there's nothing outwardly that she's doing, she thinks in an overtly sexual manner. Okay. But I would say this, that she's hiding from and running from her desire to know and be known, and that's a clear demonstration of sexual brokenness. When Anne relates to the people in her work atmosphere, her mind is on task, and so the struggling coworker, male or female, who shares something, in an instant, Anne listens and moves on.
Speaker 2:She doesn't move toward in compassion. She's not knowing and being known more by that person, and she's demonstrating sexual brokenness. I would also say that there's probably part of her story where she experienced sexual brokenness, that she's probably closed off and shut down, and that keeps her moving ahead, full steam ahead, and not growing in a more robust demonstration of her sexuality. Jim, on the other hand, spends most of his days feeling overly sexually broken, because in some ways, he's plagued by sex as an idol. He feels like he should be having sex a lot more than he is.
Speaker 2:He's plagued by that. He's also plagued by the fact that he's looking at pornography. There's some good sorrow that he ought to feel over sexual sin, but he believes that discredits him from God's grace. He believes that discredits him from him talking with anyone. If Jim simply wanted to know and be known to talk with one person about the real thing in his life, not only masturbation and pornography, but a host of other things.
Speaker 2:He would be moving towards being known and knowing others, but because he believes the lie that his failure sexually excludes him from really moving relationally, he doesn't move out into relationship because of his guilt. Alright? He's demonstrating sexual brokenness. So to Anne, I would try to help her see and move towards some sorrow that there's sexual brokenness in your life. I would grieve with Jim about his sexual brokenness, but try to help him move toward the gospel in a way that he moved outwardly to know and be known.
Speaker 2:K? Let's turn the page. Alright. Remember, the path towards life giving sexuality is relational, involving a constellation of factors, and one must resist compartmentalization and behaviorism. This quote will help a little bit, and then I'll explain it.
Speaker 2:Okay? Being created as sexual persons demands much more of us than a mere assent to a set of rules about sexual behavior and standards. It involves our very being and how we live in relationship to others. In authentic in authentic sexual interaction, we are mutually responsible for building mature relationships that bring forth the best in both. When we compartmentalize rather than integrate our sexuality, we risk irresponsibility.
Speaker 2:The 2 passages I have at the bottom there, first is to Timothy, run from anything that stimulates youthful loss. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace. Enjoy the companionship of those who call on the lord with pure hearts. Run away from something, run towards something. Okay?
Speaker 2:And let's look at the other passage. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature, sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. Therefore, as god chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Turn away from something and turn toward something. When we think in general about our sexuality, what we talk about is turning away from something, not turning towards something.
Speaker 2:We compartmentalize it, and we teach behaviorism. Okay? The gospel is much more robust than that. I'll give you an example. I was asked to speak at a church, and the title of my talk that they gave me was protecting your child's purity.
Speaker 2:So I let the title stand until I spoke, and I said, the title that you've come to hear was protecting your child's purity. I can't forget my title, but it was something like this, Welcoming the fact that your children will experience sexual brokenness and guide them towards richer levels of sexual wholeness. Alright? We we don't want boys to look at pornography. That's a good and holy thing.
Speaker 2:We have things like covenant eyes. But I wanna ask you, those who are raising sons, are you teaching them how to be tender and involved, how to stay in relationship. I can tell you as a dad of 3 daughters, I'll tell you a moment where I felt really grateful for how God had led me as a dad. I have a lot of sorrows as a dad, but it was when my oldest was about 17, and I was clearly in a bad place, and I took it out on her, and honestly, I can say I was totally in the wrong, and it was the clearest time in her adolescence where I was really out of line, and I was just angry and taking on her and telling her to do something. And she stood in front of me and didn't say anything, and looked me straight in the eye and didn't budge.
Speaker 2:I didn't have the humility in that moment to say, Amy, your dad is totally out of line. Have mercy on me. But the next day, I went to her and I said, Amers, I've been proud of you, but I was really proud yesterday, because you didn't say anything. But here's what I heard you say, dad, you're a better man than this and I'm not about to let you get away with it. K.
Speaker 2:She was demonstrating some feminine strength, and I believe becoming much more of a woman in the process. Alright? Out of fear, we teach our kids what not to do, but we don't teach them what to do as adults in our own sexuality. I mean, you don't even talk about it enough in life giving ways with your friends. You're not practicing it, what it means to become, in some ways, a more robust woman or a more robust man, because we've compartmentalized it.
Speaker 2:Our sex, because we listen to the culture, is having sex. So if I'm not married, I better not talk about my sexuality as sex. I better not disclose to someone that I wanna have sex, or that I've had sex, or whatever it is. Okay. We compartmentalize it, and that keeps us from the gospel.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna read one other passage we have there. You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as don't handle, don't taste, don't touch? Such rules are more mere human teaching about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise, because they require strong devotion, pious self denial, and severe bodily discipline, but they provide no help in conquering a person's evil desires.
Speaker 2:Behaviorism will not change us. The law can guide us into truth, and into what's good, but it can't change us. Okay? Alright. Let's go down.
Speaker 2:We must affirm the beauty of desire and live by faith in the tension it creates. A mature believer is someone who wants all good things and at the same time can wait for them to be granted. As Christians, because we're afraid of our sexuality actually, we're because we're afraid of desire, we don't do a good job embracing our sexuality. Every one of you in here was made to taste and experience every good thing, and you should want every good thing, because there will be a day when you taste every good thing, or the one good thing you only taste in part now. When you shut down your desire for all that's good, including sexual desires, you shut yourself down from longing and desiring for god.
Speaker 2:I have a passage in there. I should let's see. Yeah. Just turn the page and alright. But I tell you this, though we won't do it for friendship's sake, if you keep knocking long enough, this is your first italicized passage, he will get up and give you whatever you need because of your shameless persistence, and so I tell you, keep on asking and you will receive what you ask for.
Speaker 2:Keep on seeking and you will find. Keep on knocking and the door will be open to you. For everyone who asks receives, everyone who seeks finds, and everyone who knocks the door will be opened. You fathers, if your children ask you for a fish, do you give them a snake instead? Or if they ask for an egg, do you give them a scorpion?
Speaker 2:Of course not. So if you sinful people know how to good give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? Now I want you to know this. It talks about keep seeking, keep asking, keep knocking, stay open to your desire, and then it talks about god's desire to give us good gifts. Now here's the problem.
Speaker 2:If we passionately want all good things and our appetites are broken, will we not go after some things that are not good? We will. We will. And that includes all of us in a myriad of ways. None of us are that good that we don't passionately desire some things that are wrong that we need to repent of so that our desire is shifting and changing and falling more in line with the full direction of the holy spirit.
Speaker 2:Okay? We're a mixture of flesh and spirit. Our hope would be that our flesh is being mortified, desires are being sanctified, and more and more and more, what we desire is in fact good. But because we wanna get it right, we shut down to desire. When I work with people who've experienced an addiction, they are so afraid to desire anything because their desire has messed them up.
Speaker 2:If I'm working with someone who's literally has really had a problem, significant problem, let's say with overeating, the first thing I have to help them accept is food is a really good thing. In fact, it's a gift. Every time you eat, you feel guilty, so food does not provide any nourishment for you. I've gotta help you connect with the fact that that desire is good and holy, and I want you to rest with that, and then we'll work at how do you turn over the other part of your desire to the lord and ask him to sanctify it. We have to live.
Speaker 2:People want to find balance. I wanna be a balanced person. Well dude, when I see you in heaven, we'll enjoy your balance. But between now and then, you're gonna have to live in attention, attention that your desire creates. If we're afraid of desire, we're really afraid on some level of going deeper with the lord and deeper with others, but that desire can be broken, so you have to be thoughtful about it.
Speaker 2:Alright? And let me do this. We started a little bit late, so I'm gonna do a little bit on married sexuality. I would talk a little bit more and flesh out some of these other categories in a different setting, but I wanted to give you a sense, couple points of how to move to a more robust sense of your masculinity and femininity because I thought we would have some married couples. I wanted to talk a little bit about marital sexuality.
Speaker 2:And as a bridge, I wanna combine both things, and I'm gonna talk in general in a generality. Okay? In general, in general, men are a little bit more physically oriented, and women are a little bit more relationally oriented. And guys and gals, wives are right when they're saying, if they're saying it, if they have the courage to ask for and fight for what's good, I want our relationship to grow deeper so that I feel safer with you and want to have more sex. K?
Speaker 2:Relational sexuality and physical sexuality are connected. And you this may sound crazy to you, but I'm gonna give you again general posture of a man and a woman who are married towards sexuality. A man, if we're talking about genital sex, the physical active sex, in general, there's exceptions, men would like it. K. A wife usually has 3 postures, especially after she's had some kids in general.
Speaker 2:I would like it. I don't really want it a 100% tonight, but I really want it enough that I wanna give you a gift. It'd be more of a gift for you than me, be a little bit more of a sacrifice for me, and then, no, I would not like to have sex. I believe a husband and a wife have to get comfortable with the wife having all three postures as much as they have to get comfortable with the husband having a posture, and that may change some. That's generality.
Speaker 2:Now, if we're gonna talk about relational sex, okay, a woman would like it. A man would like it. He would like it enough to give his wife a gift, like I will go out tonight and try to involve myself with you and pursue you relationally, even though I'm a little bit tired and I'm not so into it, and then, no, I really do want to zone out and watch football. We're in the south. Okay?
Speaker 2:Alright. Now what I believe is really important are these 2 middle postures. K? Wives, in general, if your husband wants to give you a gift and try to engage himself with you, and he doesn't seem fully into it, can I advise you to take a gift? You're living with a broken human being.
Speaker 2:And relational sex, women are much more comfortable with strong emotional content, tent, relational sex is more challenging for a husband, a woman is more physically vulnerable, alright, as a as a weaker vessel, physically weaker. No other way. Physically weaker. And so a lot of times, a woman, especially as she has young kids and is physically tired, it's harder to want sex and husband, if they're not totally into it, take a gift. It's the gospel.
Speaker 2:Okay? And then learn to hear no. Right? Now I believe we should be moving towards fuller expressions of both relational sex and physical sex, and moving up as we grow in the gospel and enjoying both. But I work with a lot of couples and the more kind of, I would say, worldly masculine a man is.
Speaker 2:And I'll come in and and I'll just give you an example. It's not a perfect, like, not someone, but it's a composite. Come in with a man who's saying, we've got 3 young kids, and we're only having sex 3 times a week, and the wife doesn't wanna have sex at all, and she also doesn't wanna talk that much, and he wants to talk a lot and tell her what to do. And I have to say to them that all you think about is sex is genital sex, and there's no category of relational sex. And if you begin to soften and have more relational sex, husband, you actually in your desire for sex, you want closeness and intimacy, and you don't even believe that about self because you've bought into the lie of what we culturally believe about sex.
Speaker 2:But I believe as you soften and do the gospel and change, and you begin to experience more nourishment outside of sex, that your desire for sex will soften a little bit, and out of that you will treat your wife a little bit differently, and her desire for sex will change. Maybe you'll move towards something better together. Okay? That's a little bit of a background. Let me talk about a couple of these points, and then we'll, finish up.
Speaker 2:Alright? So if we're gonna move towards more life giving marital sex, alright, this is on the bottom of page 5, I've already said this. Remember that genital sex and relational sex are complementary and are designed to birth pleasurable person centered sex. Let me read that paragraph. The less that most people settle for is body centered sex rather than person centered sex.
Speaker 2:In person centered sex, one is intimately and emotionally engaged with the other in a way that creates a deep connection and interdependence. In contrast to this, body centered sex involves being engaged with the other for mere pleasure one gains from the encounter. Though passion and pleasure are important aspects of the sexual engagement, vital sex is so much more than a bodily release expressed through an orgasm. I wanna read that quote down there. It says this, McCarthy reports that when sexuality functions well in a marriage, it's a positive integral component contributing to 15 to 20% of to the marital bond.
Speaker 2:However, when sexuality is dysfunctional or nonexistent, it plays an enormously powerful role. 50 to 75% robbing the marriage of intimacy and vitality. Let me interpret that. Okay? To a couple that's maturing and growing, and so they experience their sexuality inside and outside the bedroom, in that context, genital sex falls into a softer place.
Speaker 2:When sex is too inordinately important, it robs the marriage of what's going on. Okay? I would say both, because and sex is intrinsic to who we are. The scriptures would say sexual sin is a little bit more important, and we have to pay attention to it that way, but our our culture has made sex such an idol that if things are wrong in our marriage, oftentimes we will think it's that, and we won't move to deeper levels of love, or even if we have sexual sin, we think it's too big, and that doesn't that means we can't participate in life and grow to something better. But in a married relationship, if a couple's not moving towards a more robust sense of their masculinity and femininity, then genital sex carries an inordinate amount of importance in the relationship and really creates distance.
Speaker 2:And what's really easy to do in our culture is if you're not having really good sex, something's wrong with you, and you begin to listen to lies and things about your relationship that are not even true, and you put everything in that if we're having better sex, it would be better. Men most likely would do that more than women, but that can begin to rob the relationship of what's really true. Alright. Let's turn the page. Increasing levels of mature love leading to solid differentiation will increase pleasure more than enhance physical performance.
Speaker 2:K. Now read that quote there. While other primates copulate rapidly and from the rear, only human beings exchange chai, what this fellow calls it, the energy of their aliveness by making love face to face, belly to belly, heart to heart. Okay? Human beings are the only species that have sex face to face, and it's a picture of the vulnerability it takes.
Speaker 2:Right? That's why on some level when you're coming together sexually as a couple, there should be a little bit more personal nakedness where you're more vulnerable and exposed, and then when you try to touch each other with kindness, that's why it has a refreshing nature to it. Because you feel really exposed and really vulnerable, and you're trying to be kind to each other. In many ways, physically, you're preaching the gospel to each other. Alright?
Speaker 2:So, I wanna look at differentiation for a second. David Snark defines differentiation as the process by which a person manages individuality and togetherness in a relationship. Where differentiation is low, sexual intimacy is also low due to fears of being engulfed, entrapped, exploited, or abandoned. Satisfying sexual encounters are based on 2 individuals who are full, not empty, so they can give and receive in mutual ways. Differentiated persons have the capacity to lose themselves in each other's embrace without fear of being absorbed by the other, here they find a mysterious one flesh unity of body, spirit, and soul.
Speaker 2:So as you're moving into your own masculinity where you're becoming more comfortable with who you are as a man or who you are as a woman, then how you share that in the bedroom really grows. Keep remembering 3 different people who relate it so well, they're called one god. It's really really important in your marriage to be really individual and to be really together. Alright? That leads to a healthier relationship both inside and outside the bedroom.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna say this about ongoing sexual impediments are normal. There's a passage there, a scripture, a quote. You could read that if you wanted to. Let me just say this to those of you who are married. Stop believing that there's a couple out there that doesn't have marital struggles, that mythical couple that always has good sex, and the reason you keep in interpreting your sexual encounters as less than they should be, that couple doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:Whether it's tiredness, hormones, work stress, children, in laws, a host of other issues, ongoing sexual impediments are normal. Alright? I wanna move down and talk about the last thing, and then we'll finish. At meaningful times, what you tell yourself about your sexual relationship with your spouse is off well, is often more important than the actual sexual experience themselves. Married couples, I want you to pause for a second, and I want you just to think about the moments you've been together, not what you've thought about those moments, not what you've talked to your friends or yourself about those moments.
Speaker 2:I want you to think about the holiness of being naked with your spouse, And I want you to think about trying to please another person. Another person at times, and depending on how long you've been married, another person who will hurt you more than anyone else in this world just because they live with you, You're trying to be kind to them and touch them with kindness. I believe if you could shut off the drama in your mind, most of you who maybe have real tension in your sexual relationship and think it's a lot less than it should be, you experience your spouse and the lord in a refreshing way whenever you're together, in general, but I'll tell you what robs you of that joy or that refreshment, is the drama in your mind. How many of you have been to, let's say, a really really enjoyable dinner party, where you laughed, maybe had a couple of drinks, really enjoyed each other, told stories, played games, I don't care, whatever you did, you really enjoyed it, married couple, and then you got in the car and you thought about a comment someone made, and you said that to your spouse about how it frustrated you, and you start talking about that spouse and you begin to or that other person, you begin to go downward, then maybe you even get into a little bit of a tiff.
Speaker 2:And by the time you get home, you totally forget what an enjoyable night you've had. The drama robs you of the actual experience you had. A lot of times, your sexual relationship has been refreshing and life giving, and then it's how you begin to process that and the temptations and trials that come into your mind as you entertain that, you get pulled away more and more and more from the refreshment that that experience gave you. This is C. S.
Speaker 2:Lewis. He says, if I find in myself desires which nothing in this world can satisfy, the only logical explanation is that I was made for another world. K? And even you Christians who have the Holy Spirit within you as a foretaste of future glory, grown to be released from pain and suffering, you too would anxiously for that day when God will give you his full rights as your full rights as his children. Every single moment in this world falls far short of what you're made for.
Speaker 2:Every beautiful moment, there's room because it's less than what it should be. There's room for you to entertain drama about it. Okay? And so let me say this, whether it's your sexual experience, if you're married, or a friendship, or work, or whatever else, if we don't learn to sorrow the broken places in our life, then the drama in our mind will grow, and we will try to make sense of why things are not perfect, why things are not the way they should be. Can I tell you why things are not the way they should be?
Speaker 2:Because things are not the way they should be, okay? So as a married couple, oftentimes what you tell yourself about your sexual experience is more important than experience itself. I wanna remind you, the vulnerability of being naked together is a holy thing. Trying to touch each other come on. You're human beings.
Speaker 2:You don't do anything perfectly, and I believe having sex together is spiritual warfare and you're fighting something simply to please each other and be kind. And whether both of you, one of you, neither of you have orgasm, it's something holy and special you can do with each other, and there's refreshment there. Whatever your sexual relationship is good, I want you to begin to put a boundary around that and celebrate it and nourishment and nourish it and fight the drama that wants to attack the actual nourishment you have in your sexual relationship. And remember, there's not someone out there that's moving from great sex to great sex, and those people who say they are, in general, and can't talk about some fallenness in their sexual life, their hearts are hardening in a way you would never want yours to. Okay?
Speaker 2:Alright. We're gonna take a 10 minute break, and then come back and do a question and answer. Alright.
Jeffrey Heine:Alright. So, who would like to be the first question? I will just put the microphone in front of somebody. Oh, you ready? Alright.
Speaker 4:Oh. So, you were talking about husbands having kind of these three desires and wives having these three desires. And if men typically live in the middle or on the bottom, like, how can as a husband, how can other than putting sticky notes up all over my house to remind myself to, you know, engage more, relationally, is there a way to kind of I'm expecting your answer to be no, but will oneself to to grow in that? Or what is my ultimate goal in in, an understanding of, like, how to relate to my wife in that way?
Speaker 2:So and let me resay it back to you, and then you can say if that's what you're asking. Like, essentially, if a husband really is called towards more involvement relationally, how do I do that? How do I get there? Is that
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay. Let me say this. First of all, I believe the commands in the scriptures, like keep treating your wife with understanding, sacrifice for your wife, wives in the same way respect your husbands. I believe the commands in the scriptures are the hard things that we need needed to be reminded to do. It didn't say, husbands, remember to check out as often as possible in your marriage.
Speaker 2:Okay? So first of all, the commands there are the hardest, and that doesn't mean what we're to be doing 247 or that we're feel we're to feel pressure being great at it, but if we recognize that our tendency is maybe away from involvement and we're open that that's the direction we're moved to, and we actually can have conversations where we're listening about maybe our lack of involvement, then you're gonna be moving in the right direction. I think the best that a couple can do is to be moving 2 steps up, 1 step back. So if you're moving towards that and growing that, I believe that will give your relationship a vibrancy, you know, that will help you keep going. So first of all, you just have to be open to the category and be trying to move, and recognizing that I'm gonna do that in a stumbling stumblingly sort of way.
Speaker 2:Okay? The second thing I would remember is if the lord calls you to that, instead of thinking, what can I do that will help me do that? I would encourage you to think about it this way. Lord, do you want to help me do that, and there are ways you're calling me to that? Help me to pay attention to that.
Speaker 2:Help me step into that. Don't let me think, alone in this that you're really wanting me, pursuing me, helping me to move into this. And then I just think I really think, sticky note or something like, to have a means of grace, something that will help you do what you wanna do, is a good thing, so it could be a sticky note. You have to think about your own life and the own way you and way you're wired, and think what would be good pictures based on how my wife would receive involvement, not just on how I would give it, and what are ways I could practice at that. And probably over time, those ways would shift, but it would be good for you to have actual pictures or reminders of what this would be, and then to practice at it.
Speaker 2:So hope that helps a little bit. But just being open to it and discussing it and being honest about it is half the battle, will help you move toward it. Alright. Anybody else? Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the question being, could I talk a little bit about sexual brokenness in gay and lesbian couples and how as a Christian community we can engage them, is that the yeah. Would be a popular topic in today's culture. Let me say this y'all, I mean there's there'd be a 1000000 different ways I could speak to that, but I would say this, first of all, if we're going to think about engaging anybody about anything, I would use Galatians 6 as a way to begin thinking about that. It says, if anyone among you is overtaken by sin or caught in any And it says, if you're gonna engage someone about that, you do it in gentleness, each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ for if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Speaker 2:I remember driving up to New Jersey to my brother's funeral, my brother took his life, and my daughters were asking about suicide and was he a believer and questions like that. And I told my daughters, I don't know, it could have been that extra piece of cake that you took that you knew was your sister's and you knew you shouldn't have done it. Have you not done things that you shouldn't have done? Okay. Have you not been overtaken by desires that you've not been able to say no to, alright, just to help them understand that's what their uncle did, but back to the issue at hand, I would just say this, I think you have to understand that that's their frame of reference and to say that they're wrong is not for a lot of people, I would if you wanted to read a good, Wesley Hill Washed and Waiting, he just tells his own story and journey.
Speaker 2:It would really help you enter into that issue from a really thoughtful perspective. I think you just got to understand that's their reality. How do I engage them based on their reality, and how do I talk to them about life in a meaningful way, where I'm just helping them walk towards redemption, hoping that they move in that? I think to go straight on about the issue would not have much wisdom from my perspective. I don't know much more that I would say, but, and that goes for anybody we're going to talk to about anything, really.
Speaker 2:I mean I would look at Galatians 6 and think about those core thoughts about doing that, so, there'd be tons more I'd say on that, but that would hopefully be helpful thought. Alright. Anybody else? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Great question. So and hopefully I'll say it back to you right, like, he's asking a question, if I'd grown up and kind of sex was not talk about it and was repressed, in fact, this has been more talk about sex than you're used to, how do I move in that direction? You know, we we really, really like it's one of the reasons we're so can be so anemic in our culture is because they're talking about sex all the time and we're going in the other extreme, like we really do need to be able to talk about it thoughtfully and meaningfully, and richly and beautifully and honestly and brokenly. So how do you move towards that?
Speaker 2:I I think, again, you would probably need a means of grace. Like, if it was you as a married couple, Like what I will do with my premarital couples, is I will give them a reading on sex and say, I want you both to read this, and what I want you to do is mark what I like, what I don't like, what surprises me, whatever. I just want you to mark what moves you in a passionate way, and then you're to talk about what you marked. And I say, you're gonna you're going from not talking much about sex to needing to talk about sex, and so this is a way, a means of grace to help you do that. So maybe some doing some reading and actually using that as a means of grace.
Speaker 2:I would say in your probably in your smaller groups, like if you've got a couple friends you get together with, I mean, you've just got to begin talking about your sexuality, your hopes, your desires, your brokenness, men or women, like I don't think there's any other way to do it but to begin talking about it. I have a, another counselor, a good friend of mine, we talk every other week, and we talk about everything including our sexuality, and our sex, not together, but with our spouses. So I would just try to find some means of grace that help you to do that, and then try to begin to welcome that into the whatever communities you're a part of, begin to move towards that. But even as a married couple, just creating an atmosphere where you can talk about it and not be afraid of it, realize and and you might be the 7th conversation where you begin talking about it better, but the first 6 are really important because you've opened the door. You're creating a space.
Speaker 2:Alright? It's a little bit like if, there's a room in your house that is just totally trashed and you never go in there to deal with it, the first time or 2 you start dealing with it, it's a pain in the neck, but over time, you create a space where you can enjoy that room. So stay at it and continue to do it and realize over time it becomes something easier to talk about. Anybody else? So so kind of what it means to live out your sexuality as a single woman, just flesh that out a little bit more, and where you're, yeah, single woman or man.
Speaker 2:Okay. First of all, and and you guys, this may sound funny. It may not feel sexual at all, and I want you to think sensuous like we're sensual beings. So it's really good for our sensuous to senses to be aroused. This may sound really crazy, but I think one way to embrace your sexuality as a man or a woman is when you hear things that are complimentary about yourself, enjoy those and ask for more information.
Speaker 2:Okay? We oftentimes downplay, alright, compliments, but if someone gives you one, you need to milk it and get more information and enjoy it. Okay? I think we tend to live here as believers. Okay?
Speaker 2:I'm not really that good. I'm not really that bad, and the gospel wants to move us here. We're worse than we thought. We do things that we shouldn't do. We need to be talking about those things.
Speaker 2:Realize, simply seeking first the kingdom of God, if you're talking about especially the ways you're relationally broken, and you're opening them up, and you're receiving some grace and some truth, you're becoming more of a man or a woman in a way that will give you life. That's simply doing the gospel. But the same thing's true over here. We tend to not really talk well and celebrate the beauty in each other. I one of the points I normally talk about when I talk about sexuality is creativity.
Speaker 2:We think having a child is, you know, that's creative, and it really is. Like, we're able to create a child, and then we're able to shape our children in certain ways, but creativity is such a part of our sexuality. So where people are being creative, like, to affirm that and to enjoy that, whatever a person's gift, if it's not creative, I don't know what people do, but to simply enjoy and appreciate the beauty and the people that you're connected to as a way to celebrate their sexuality. And then I think what I said before, like, there actually needs to be places, whether a single woman or a single man, where you're talking about longings, desires, lustfulness, your sexuality, to create an atmosphere where it's falling in a softer place, and it's more life giving. I really think we have to practice at enjoying, like, especially in a church community.
Speaker 2:Okay? Mixed genders. Like, take a little bit of a risk whether you're married or not, and speak to and enjoy someone from the opposite gender without being afraid that you're going to have an affair. Okay? We, like, we can have affairs and cross relating can be dangerous, but oftentimes behaviorism has been we don't do that.
Speaker 2:I mean, we have a a good friend of ours, who's gone through a divorce and she really feels like a sister to me and I can mess around with her. She can compliment me. I can compliment her. I mean, there's neither male nor female in Christ in that relationship, and there's a real, like I come alive when, around her in good ways and I enjoy being a little bit more of a man, and it's not erotic, it's just life giving. Okay?
Speaker 2:We need to do more of that in our communities and not be afraid that it's gonna lead to an affair. Now, there are cases where some people can do that wrongly, and that can, you know, where whatever it is, it's leading on and, you know, if you're single, like, there's ways to do that wrongly. I'm not saying that, but I don't think, again, we tend to flee what's wrong and not practice at what's really good. And faithfulness is, you're a brother or sister. I wanna encourage you.
Speaker 2:I wanna speak life into you. I wanna help you become more of who you are in a life giving way. You know, I hope that helps a little bit. Yeah. Anybody else?
Speaker 2:Howard. Howard, to what extent sexual eye should be talked in the pulpit? I think Joel should preach from the song of songs for the next 2 months. Okay? Obviously it's a conversation in our culture, and it should be talked about.
Speaker 2:All the Scriptures should be preached. I know Joel believes that, but I think we should talk about it more in in life giving, beautiful, holy ways that helps us it arouses our passion and gives us wisdom on how to practice it. So I think it should be as regular a part of our conversation as anything else we're talking about. And I also think, like and this is from a counsel counselor's perspective. Oftentimes, from the pulpit or even in studies, we stick to the more rigid categories, and we don't talk about deeper relational categories and what it means to be a man and a woman, so even that can be talked about.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm in the middle of teaching marriage and family at peace and divinity, and last week, we did Wednesdays was men and Fridays was women, and I said, you've got to begin thinking about what the scriptures teach about masculinity and femininity, so that you can help those you're shepherding and preaching to to really think more about like, the shape of a man and woman's soul, I really believe is different. We believe that, but we don't talk about it robustly. Like, why is like, when it says, I mean, not just in my own life when it said, I read this in Psalm 103, God is like a father to his children, tender and compassionate. And I read that after years of being a dad and wept a little bit because I thought, I really enjoy being tender and I don't need to be afraid of that, like that's a good and holy thing. Where are we encouraging men in good ways to be more tender, and that that's masculinity?
Speaker 2:Alright? In fact, I'll I'll just say this real quickly. There's 3 imperative commands to parents and children in the new testament. Three things that parents and children are told to do. Alright.
Speaker 2:The first is children, obey your parents. The other 2 are actually to men. Fathers don't exasperate your children. Fathers don't make your children angry in the way you treat them. And so I'm gonna summarize for you new testament advice to parents and children.
Speaker 2:To children, it says, you got 2 big people who really care about you. At meaningful times, they may not really look like they care that much about you, but they have your best interest at heart. You've gotta learn to listen to them and follow them. K. To dads, it says this, and this is what we don't talk about enough.
Speaker 2:Your tendency is to not be as thoughtful about how you relate. You're really big to your children because you're physically stronger. You have an incredible impact on them. You need to be thinking about how you relate to them. And then it says to wives, we're not gonna say any or to moms, we're not gonna say anything to you because you were gonna be too darn worried about being a mom, and we weren't gonna give you anything else to worry about.
Speaker 2:Okay? So just those categories, and and we we laugh, but those category, that's masculinity and femininity. That's talking about our sexuality from a biblical perspective. That type of stuff needs to be talked about. Alright.
Speaker 2:Anybody else? Yeah. So, essentially, how do we talk to our children about sexuality? Is that okay. And, you know, we didn't I I would say this as a as a family, I don't think we did a good job.
Speaker 2:We did a really good job about gender sexuality in terms of erotic or genital sexuality. We did not do a good job, I don't believe, as a family. Okay. I wish that we had done this. There are some really good tools if you were to Google, get online that are age appropriate that you can use.
Speaker 2:Illustrations children like it's why I don't do counsel adolescents because they are younger children. They don't really do talk therapy. You need pictures and illustrations, and you need helps to communicate. So the first thing I would say is, if you're a younger parent, I would begin doing some research now, even as a community, and find some resources that are age appropriate for your children, and use those resources. Again, they're a means of grace to help you do what you ought to do.
Speaker 2:Okay? I think and again, this is where we are strong. Think about what a man looks like and what a woman looks like, where a man struggles, where a woman struggles, and reinforce the important things in your children that help them become a little bit more of a young girl into a grown girl, or with a guy. Okay? I would also say this.
Speaker 2:I would in general, your children will bring some things up. The Deuteronomy passage that talks about talk about this and talk about that with your kids, like teach them wherever you're going the gospel. I think teaching your children in the moment, truth will come alive in the moment. We are, are you all are you all taping this? Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. It's it's not that big a deal. We had a conversation with one of our daughters just in the last couple days, and in it was really related to her sexuality. She's very, very gifted in seeing what's good and what's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Okay. And she's really into fashion and she dresses really beautifully at times. Okay. We also felt like she needed some help thinking about how she dressed. Well, my wife and I were talking about it, praying about it, wanting to talk to her, and she came out showing a prom dress, or not a prom, a homecoming dress, and my wife said something about how that wasn't the greatest choice, and I entered in and we and and a discussion unfolded for about an hour.
Speaker 2:And just in the moment, as it came alive, we moved into that, and it was a really beautiful conversation. In fact, I said to her at one point, sweetie, I love the fact that you love what's good and that you want what's good, and oftentimes is it, in our family, you've helped fight for better things. You're the one who'll say, we should go to a little bit nicer restaurant, or I want this nicer piece of clothes, and I said to her, it's a really really good thing to want what's good, and she said, dad, do you really mean that? I said, sweetheart, I really mean that, and tears came to her eyes. Okay.
Speaker 2:So that was just something that God unfolded in the moment, but we were also dialoguing and talking and praying about it, and the Lord unfolded that. If there's something you become aware of that you wanna talk to your children about, I would begin to pray and look for that moment. You may have to put it on the calendar and have that moment, but I would want it to unfold. So specifically, about age appropriate, gender stuff, touching, all of that, I would really encourage a means of grace. There's great material out there.
Speaker 2:Get a hold of it and use it. And be prayerful because we, I mean, speaking of sexuality, my oldest, alright, really had no interest in dating. I can remember when she was like in 7th grade, when kids started dating, and she was like, why would I wanna date? Like, I watch my friends have, like, a guy that they like, and they're talking, then they start dating, and they stop talking. Like, why would I wanna do that?
Speaker 2:Okay. So we didn't mention to her at all why, about you're really not gonna date until you're a junior in high school, because we didn't need to, she had no desire. Well, my freshman, my middle daughter, when she was a freshman, got asked to go to homecoming, went to homecoming. 3 weeks later I got a text that said, dad, guess what? I said, what?
Speaker 2:She said, I got a boyfriend. We hadn't talked to her because we were thinking she was like my oldest, alright? She wasn't. So, we had more conversations with her about things. So it it it's not only age appropriate, it's gonna be connected to the relationship too, and you as a husband and wife need to be talking about that and kind of be thinking about, is now the time, and then moving into that.
Speaker 2:And if you're praying and pay attention, they may help you move into that by the very way they voice it. So I hope that helps a little bit. Alright. Anybody else? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Stephanie, I really really wish I did, but I don't work with children enough to do that, but I I mean I think 2 or 3 people could begin to get together, and I think that would be something worth to post on your website or something. Here are some good resources. But the real I I just know because I've actually talked to other parents who did it a little better than us and used some of that material. So, and if I had listened more to my wife, we probably would have done that. So sorry.
Speaker 2:Okay. Alright. Anybody else? Yeah. Okay.
Caleb Chancey:So do you have some suggestions for me to trace titles for women, Adult women, not children, but, things would be good for us to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sex and the Soul of a Woman by Paula Reinhart, would highly recommend. I I probably, on this topic, I think it's the best thing out there for women that I know of. I'm trying to think of, I just read Allender's book on sex, Dan Allender, and I liked it okay. It was a helpful book, but I'll stick with that one.
Speaker 2:It's a good one. I wanna say something else about parents and teaching children about their sexuality. Okay? We learn 3 ways, auditory, kinesthetic, and visual. Okay.
Speaker 2:Auditory is what we say, reading, material, teaching. Okay. Need to do that with your children. I talked about that. I actually talked about auditory by an example.
Speaker 2:My daughter who stood up to me. Alright? One of the things I tried to do as a man is I thought men are physically stronger than women, and when they use that physical strength to intimidate, they're they're being less than a man. When they use that physical strength to serve and love, they're being a fuller man. Okay?
Speaker 2:And so I was somewhat attentive to kinesthetically teaching my daughters that when I'm angry, it's not about you, it's about me. And so I think kinesthetically, my daughter knew. I never actually auditory said, well, I probably never really said, don't be afraid of me, but I tried to demonstrate that in the way we relate it, so kinesthetically, when my oldest daughter stood up to me, when I, by not doing what I was telling her to do, she demonstrated that she learned it in the way we related. Okay? So what's really important is the way you relate in your marriage.
Speaker 2:Husband and wives, you will uncover each other's blind spots really, really well, actually. You you'll get really, really good at it, and it'll be really a painful process at times. If you can listen to that, and you can be humbled by the information your spouse is saying to you, then you soften and you change in the way you relate, and you become a little bit more of a man or a woman, and the way you relate to your children will teach them that. Like, I just think, as a woman, my wife is very free and winsome, and I really do believe my daughters have tasted that from her, and that's helped call out some of their winsomeness as girls, but it's more that they've tasted it. She never said be free and winsome, so they experienced it.
Speaker 2:So just remember, you're not only teaching your children auditory. Okay. You're teaching them kinesthetically by the way you relate to them. You're also teaching them visually what they watch between the 2 of you, and again, if you're softening and growing together as we talked about in your relational, then hopefully that's arousing some of the tenderness, and there's touching, and there's things that your children are watching in the way you were late as a husband and wife. So that's another way we teach them.
Speaker 2:Alright. Anybody else? Any other? Yeah, Caleb. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Book on masculinity. You got I mean, this is an older book. You guys have heard of Wild at Heart. I think the themes are good in there. There's things I like and don't like about that.
Speaker 2:I think the themes are good. Honestly, I think men wanna read Sex and the Soul of a Woman. You guys, our culture presents genital sex one way, and it's killing us. It's killing us. It is such a beautiful and holy thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I will say this, like any couple, like any couple, we have sexual impediments and we struggle, and I don't think we're as beat up by the mythical couple that's doing it all right, but I will say at 25 years of marriage where we are less of a physical representation of what sexual enjoyable physical sex ought to be, there's moments where I feel sexually connected to my wife in the act of sex, and hopefully her and me, that are way more beautiful than when we were first married because of our endurance together and all that we've shared, like sex has so much more to do with all your whole life. Like, I mean, again, this sounds crazy, but there's times where we've watched our children do things, and who they're becoming, and we've softened and wept together a little bit, and that is a sensuous moment where we're sharing tenderness of our sexuality that isn't sex. But as that happens and we share that in the bedroom, there's just more of a kindness and refreshment and beauty in that. And so I think our sex has fallen into a much softer, whaler place with all its brokenness, even though we're much more further removed from what good sex ought to look like physically, the way our culture teaches it.
Speaker 2:So, honestly, I I think it would be a good book for men to read. I wish, this will play my hand a little bit, but I don't read a lot of, specific books about like, I'll read stuff, articles, and things about masculinity and affinity, but I'm more reading books that talk about the gospel in different contexts and then thinking about what that means for masculinity and femininity. That's more how I learn, but anyway. Anybody else? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Winsome? Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Alright.
Speaker 2:I take that. I think it's Proverbs 3115. She's clothed with strength and dignity and she laughs with no fear of the future. Laughing with no fear of the future is winsomeness. And I'll give you a little bit more background.
Speaker 2:I would say in general, I I alluded to it earlier, I said it somewhat directly earlier, I think we're made for men and women we're both made for intimacy and impact. What the scriptures say, rule and subdue, be fruitful and multiply. Okay? I think men lean a little bit more towards, ruling and subduing. We see that when God cursed or disciplined Adam and Eve.
Speaker 2:He cursed man in the arena of making a difference. He said, you're gonna wanna be, rule and subdue, so I'm gonna have to frustrate that. You're gonna wanna really make a difference in your world, and I'm gonna frustrate that by futility. Every weed you pull, there'll be 2 more. That just shows a man is a little bit more geared towards futility because when you frustrate something somebody wants, they pay better attention to you.
Speaker 2:If you discipline your children, you have to frustrate something they want, you take away a certain toy, and then they pay attention to you. To the woman, desire will be for your husband, who will rule over you? God disciplined the woman in the area of relationship. So I believe there's 2 big differences in the male female relationship that creates attention. Okay.
Speaker 2:A man is physically stronger. It's 1st Peter 37. Keep treating your wife in an understanding ways with a weaker vessel. Any conservative commentary would tell you that means physically weaker. Alright?
Speaker 2:But because a woman is a little bit more geared towards relationship and she experiences her curse in marriage a little bit differently, your desire will be for your husband, who will rule over you, that creates 2 differentials. Alright? So husband is physically stronger. He does not need the marriage as much, and the way he's made, he can compartmentalize. So if he's making a difference at work, then he doesn't have to pay attention to his marriage.
Speaker 2:And that's why it says to a a wife, you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do. A woman pays too much attention to what her husband's doing instead of nurturing her faith in god and trusting him to God to get to her husband more than her. Okay? So there's 2 differentials. So I would just say it this way, a woman is more vulnerable in this world.
Speaker 2:More vulnerable in a marriage, she's more physically vulnerable. That's why I believe on some level and this happens more. This may be encouraging or discouraging wherever you are in your journey in life, but I think as a woman gets married and has children, whatever fear she had prior to marriage and how confident she might have been about the future, that changes a little bit when she has kids. And the future seems a little bit harder and a little bit darker. So all that's background to say, I think women, in general, if both men and women are doing the gospel, in general, a woman might have a little bit more fear of the future.
Speaker 2:So a winsomeness is simply this. I can laugh with the fear of the future. What's going on in the moment does not own me as much. Now I talked about how men and women, they really process differently. In general, men can compartmentalize and women can't.
Speaker 2:So where I saw this most clearly was actually in sexual relationships, because and I continue to have Dawn and I continue to have sex after we had kids. Okay. And to me, I was like, the kids are asleep, relax, we can have sex. To my wife, because she can't compartmentalize, which I didn't understand at first, it felt to her like the kids were in there with us, and I'm like, they're asleep. Okay.
Speaker 2:Relax. I learned to stop saying that. Okay. That's a picture. Alright.
Speaker 2:So realize guys, if you're married, or women even if you're not married, and I I think this really becomes more clear as you grow in life whether you're married or not married, but anyway, husbands, you think you're just talking about what just happened, because you can compartmentalize. And your wife's thinking about a similar thing that happened just like that 5 years ago, and she's actually 5 years down the road, and she's experiencing it happening. She's thinking about 10 years as you're talking about this incident. Alright? Because she can't compartmentalize.
Speaker 2:So for a woman not to take what happens in the moment and extrapolate it further out is real work. So winsomeness is this, that as a woman, I feel the pain of life, but I'm connected to somebody much bigger than that, and I can laugh and love and risk and be because I'm connected to somebody much bigger than me. That would be winsomeness. Anybody else? Any other?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So the question is, if we're dating, moving towards marriage, hopefully, how do we turn toward what's good in our sexuality? And let me say this, I I think and this is something I think a couple can talk together and and I would whether it's marriage or dating or single, you should have community. Just 2 or 3 close people who know what's going on and they're helping you to think about that.
Speaker 2:But I do think there should be some growing level of physical affection as you're moving towards marriage, first of all, and you 2 have to think about what that is, okay, for y'all. And I won't I mean, a lot of times people wanna know what's good or bad, but y'all talk about that in your community and flesh that out. But I but I think you can still really be growing towards a deeper level of how you connect relationally even as you're dating. Alright? There's a way that I mean, I wish I could think of a good example, but, well, let me just say this.
Speaker 2:The themes in our life, in my my relationship with my wife, like, the things we talked about the first 15 years we were married a lot, how I was condescending, how I was too like, even when we we read books, a book on sex before we were married, and as we started to talk about it, my wife was like, I don't think it's that mechanical. Like, I think it's a little bit freer and a little bit funner than that. We've had that conversation a 1000000 times because I could be more relaxed and more fun and more free. So there's themes, I think, about how you're living out your masculinity and femininity that you can be growing in how you talk about as a couple, and really that should be increasing intimacy. Like, you should be softening and coming together in a way, not perfectly, 2 steps up, 1 step back, where your relationship is feeling more personally intimate, where you're feeling more personally naked, and feeling more personally secure all at the same time.
Speaker 2:So I think there's a way to dialogue and relay that you're moving towards that. I do believe that also means physical affection is probably changing a little bit too, and again, you have to talk about that and decide what that looks like for y'all. Alright. Anybody else? Bye.
Speaker 2:I guess we're good.
Jeffrey Heine:Alright. Well join me in thanking doctor Gordon Bowles for being here.
